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NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money?
View Poll Results: Who Will Win The Most Money?
Todd Brunson
12 6.03%
Mike Matusow
6 3.02%
Phil Hellmuth
18 9.05%
Brandon Adams
35 17.59%
Antonio Esfandiari
38 19.10%
Chris Ferguson
9 4.52%
David "Viffer" Peat
76 38.19%
Dennis Phillips
5 2.51%

03-26-2010 , 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Level Knievel
TripTwelves is the best (worst?) troll on 2+2
Why ?? In this instance he has proven reasonable backing with FACTS , something others opposing him have yet to do .
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojoh07
Why ?? In this instance he has proven reasonable backing with FACTS , something others opposing him have yet to do .
Appreciate a set of unbiased eyes. So many people here are clouded by their own arrogant ignorance.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 02:34 AM
Yea EVERYONE is wrong except for you amirite
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 02:37 AM
goddd...todd brunson is so boringggg!!!
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripTwelves
Appreciate a set of unbiased eyes. So many people here are clouded by their own arrogant ignorance.
that guy says i'm wrong; he's biased!
this guy agrees with me; he's unbiased!
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:06 AM
Shut up about PH and tournaments, everyone.

This thread is about the televised PAD *cash game* if you hadn't noticed.

There are dozens of threads about Hellmuth's tournament reputation in the Zoo and NVG.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian J
wow it went from just awful to really good really fast. Its amazing what a difference changing out one player can make (and the straddle before that).
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Too bad Hellmuth left the game.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripTwelves
I understand that ROI is important, but regardless of that, PH is the best actual results based tournament player in WSOP history. And Doyle's played more events...with inferior results, as have other players.
No you clearly do not understand that ROI is important. It's not just important over the long term - it's basically the f-ing be and end all of comparing results. Actual results based? Soo, that would be ROI - what is his? I don't think it's all that high to be honest (I've already discussed this at length in the other thread).

Doyle may have played in more events, same with Men Ngyen and a few others - but I think it's close, and they have impressive results based on your criteria. And especially in the recent years, Phil plays every single goddamn event possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripTwelves
Listen, I hate PH as much as the next person, but I'm not stupid and oblivious in my hating. I can at least be objective - unlike you - you dense, numb, log of a human.
The thing you might want to think about is that, since you agree that PH is absolutely dreadful in cash games, how do think that might correlate with his tourney skills? The two games aren't totally drastically different at all. Phil is competent at beating bad players with 20-50bbs. This isn't really a hard skill at all. Anyone who even learned the game in a day and has an average IQ could do well in donkaments. If you ignore his roi, he could very well have very impressive results in your illogical sense.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil
No you clearly do not understand that ROI is important. It's not just important over the long term - it's basically the f-ing be and end all of comparing results. Actual results based? Soo, that would be ROI - what is his? I don't think it's all that high to be honest (I've already discussed this at length in the other thread).

Doyle may have played in more events, same with Men Ngyen and a few others - but I think it's close, and they have impressive results based on your criteria. And especially in the recent years, Phil plays every single goddamn event possible.



The thing you might want to think about is that, since you agree that PH is absolutely dreadful in cash games, how do think that might correlate with his tourney skills? The two games aren't totally drastically different at all. Phil is competent at beating bad players with 20-50bbs. This isn't really a hard skill at all. Anyone who even learned the game in a day and has an average IQ could do well in donkaments. If you ignore his roi, he could very well have very impressive results in your illogical sense.
"I don't think it's all that high"---good research

"The two games aren't totally drastically different at all." ---Actually, ask any thinking player (unlike yourself) and you're answer will be that they're two completely different beasts.

"Could do well in donkaments" ---This isn't a question of who COULD do what. This is a question of who HAS done what.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus
Leeann Tweeden begging for Hellmuth to stay was orgasm worthy
+1
If Leann ever asks me to stay I'm stayin'.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripTwelves
"I don't think it's all that high"---good research
I said I already discussed it at length in many posts in a recent thread. Check out the Hellmuth thread in NVG. But it's really hard to estimate his ROI. We just know he's played in the most or close to the most in history. Why don't you show me some research of his supposed high ROI? The onus is on you since you claim it's the best in the world and that we can't even argue against it. This is just absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripTwelves
"The two games aren't totally drastically different at all." ---Actually, ask any thinking player (unlike yourself) and you're answer will be that they're two completely different beasts.
Tom Dwan: "I don't play tournies and cash games all that differently [sic]"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripTwelves
"Could do well in donkaments" ---This isn't a question of who COULD do what. This is a question of who HAS done what.
No, it's a question of whether or not you could drag some random guy with an average IQ off the street, teach him some basic strategy, buy him into every tournament, and see how he does. I'd lay money that if this guy gets on any sort of heater the results will surprise you.

Last edited by Veil; 03-26-2010 at 04:05 AM.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil
Tom Dwan: "I don't play tournies and cash games all that differently [sic]"
And this is supposed to prove what? Durrrballs has never won a significant tournament.

Thanks for owning yourself and proving my point for me though. Appreciated.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:13 AM
Are you 14 or something btw? Just curious.

Dwan is probably the best NL player in the world. For you to just brush off this quote shows your ignorance and stupidity.

Tom has played in such a small amount of tournaments that your critique is absurd. Besides he has final tabled one wpt and basically two wsop final tables. So his ROI I would guess is high.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil
Are you 14 or something btw? Just curious.

Dwan is probably the best NL player in the world. For you to just brush off this quote shows your ignorance and stupidity.

Tom has played in such a small amount of tournaments that your critique is absurd. Besides he has final tabled one wpt and basically two wsop final tables. So his ROI I would guess is high.
LOL....i really hope you're joking at everything you just said.

You're insulting yourself. I'd think durrrrtard is a lifetime loser in tournaments and has a negative tournament ROI.

Last edited by TripTwelves; 03-26-2010 at 04:32 AM.
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03-26-2010 , 04:23 AM
kevmath can u just ban triptwelves?? this guy singlehandedly derails and ruins every single thread that he participates in with his mindless/pointless arguing with other posters. Triptwelves die in a fire
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CESARIAN
kevmath can u just ban triptwelves?? this guy singlehandedly derails and ruins every single thread that he participates in with his mindless/pointless arguing with other posters. Triptwelves die in a fire
It's a public forum for a reason chump. I have just as much of a right to be here as you do..sorry to say.

You'll find plenty of people agreeing with what I've said. Plenty of people have chirped in on the same stuff I've talked about, and I'm doing nothing different than anyone else here.

Whine Whine Whine...here's some cheese.

And btw...it takes two people to argue...all I've done is posted my opinions. It's not my fault people want to fire back with nonsense that needs smothering.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinLake
Plz be showing these stats...which include No. of Tournies, Avg. buy-in and ROI for Phil Hellmuth.

Don't go getting all high and mighty like you have some fact based argument, when all it is based on is some incomplete information, based on a small sample of tournaments.

For one, you keep talking about wsop cashes like they aren't some of the softest MTTs you'll ever play. I'd take the guys that consistently do well the weekly online $1ks and 100r over Hellmuth any day. And they do have the stats to back up their play.
Something has been posted a while ago concerning WSOP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spimp
So i had alot of time on my hands today and did some stupid research. All data is from Hendon Mob. There is a slight variance in numbers becuase I may have added a a couple tourny buy in's twice but it should be pretty damn close. Only events included are 'open' so no ladies, seniors or employee events. This is including, and through the ME this year and assuming no cash in ME this year.

Since PH Main Event Win:

Phils total WSOP winnings: $6,054,988

Total entry $'s if PH played EVERY event since he won: $1,957,500

Total ROI if PH played EVERY event since he won: 209.32%

Total per event $'s for EVERY event since he won: $10,604.18

Avg buy in per tourny: $3428.19

Total events since he won: 571

Avg events per year: 28.55 (avg of about 19/year during all of 90's)

Few more tidbits. For some reason not as many events in '99. 2005 was the year the 10k World Championships in many other events started. 2006 was
50k HORSE so that also inflated buy-in numbers. If you assume he only played 90% of those tourny's his ROI= 243.63%. If he played 80% of them his ROI is 286.49%.

These numbers are flat-out sick. We know he cant possibly play EVERY event per year so which makes them even better. I dont think he is the best player in the world. I do think he is one of the best tournament players ever though. When it comes to poker, he is rude, arragant, childish, selfish and.... +++EV!!
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jourdain
Something has been posted a while ago concerning WSOP:
Beautiful. Just beautiful. I love it when I'm right and DevinLake is wronger than wrong.

I can't wait to see if this shuts people up and they admit I was right...or if they find some weaselhole to try and squeeze their incorrect nonsense through.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 05:03 AM
Dennis Phillips in to spice up the game. lulz
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolnout
Dennis Phillips in to spice up the game. lulz
hahaha nice. I imagine he and viffer have never played together before, but it's going to be cool to see how their styles clash, even if it's for one more night.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 05:28 AM
OK, my two cents:

I don't think anyone can really belittle Hellmuth's WSOP accomplishments. I mean, that's just absurd. And yes he won most of his bracelets when the fields were much smaller -- still, there were a ton of pros that didn't win anywhere near as much as he did, with the exception of Chan and Seidel.

In a lot of ways, Hellmuth honed/perfected the ABCs of tournament poker. He can make some really disciplined folds and makes good reads on people who are playing conventional style tournament poker. That is, he seems to have a good handle on whether or not someone has a 99-JJ type hand or a AQ/AJ type hand or a KK+ type hand. Those types of edges are pretty important in small field tournaments where people don't want to go broke with JJ (lulz).

Also, he's remained moderately successful in tournaments even though everyone is gunning for him and attacking him with 3/4-bets preflop because they know he doesn't want to go broke without the nuts. That indicates some level of adjustment has been going on.

That said, he's obviously clueless when playing against world-class players who are comfortable playing a wider range than 12/10. Poker has evolved a lot since his heyday and he's trying to play some weird, nitty/passive/overly trappy style.

Take the AQo on the BTN hand in HSP. He limps a premium hand on the button -- why? Because he's dreaming of the day he traps Phil Ivey's QJ on a Q-high flop for $200K? Just an absurd play, just as it was absurd for him to fold AQo on the previous hand when Durrr and Dario are raising -- yeah, raise and reraise in front makes AQo a standard fold in tournaments, but not in deepstacked cash games against the two most aggro players in the world.

He obviously steams and tilts off way too much and then tries to play a different style than he's used to -- then when he gets coolered/bad beated it's probably wise for him to not rebuy because he's just going to tilt off another $200K. And yes, I think he would get totally killed in any online 6-max game above NL50. FFS if you think the SB is squeezing light, stacking TT on the BTN is totally ***** standard, Phil. (My guess is Adams had a perfect read that Phil did not have QQ+/AK and that he could outplay him on a lot of flops; he did, after all, see him slowplay big hands earlier in the show.)
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 05:48 AM
thanks baudib, finally some sense
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 06:18 AM
phil hellmuth is hands down the most delusional person on the planet.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 06:21 AM
Can anyone explain Dennis thought process when he had J5 of hearts thx.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote
03-26-2010 , 06:36 AM
It tilts me when people think Phillips won the main event. Even last night Ali said "after having won the main event.." indicating he won the whole thing. Why is this? It's not the first time I hear it said in some poker medium.
NEW Poker After Dark - Week 2 of the 50k Cash Game - Who Will Win The Most Money? Quote

      
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