CGK, what questions do you have about the WSPOC, e-tables, etc., that haven't already been asked? Please post them! I'm sure that the posters in that thread would help you.

I don't really like the idea of abandoning the containment thread for e-tables v. live tables because it's an issue that can consume other threads pretty easily, much like tipping. People end up repeating the same arguments on either side and also tend to get riled up more than when discussing other topics that are part and parcel of B&M, such as floor rulings, best practices for players and staff members, and etiquette.

I also have a hard time believing that a casual reader of the forums would be pleasantly surprised to have entered the Harrah's Cherokee Poker Venues Thread in late March to see a bunch of posts about whether PokerPro's e-tables are somehow "rigged" or seeing users debating whether a theoretical professional poker player would prefer e-tables over PokerStars or over live tables.

Quick general note to posters who post in this thread or even the About the Forums forum when they have issues with moderation: if you present your ideas in a concise, coherent, and civil manner, you will be taken seriously.

I do my very best to enforce the guidelines of this forum without any sort of bias or favoritism. However, I will admit freely that I have a tendency to take less seriously posters who conduct themselves in a manner that disrespects the community. Usually that mental shortcut, as Robert Cialdini would call it, serves me incredibly well. For instance, take a look at the recent posts in this thread by grenzen and Dohnutts. Although they appear to be on the same side of the issue of live v. e-table containment, grenzen's posts appear to be well-thought out, respectful of the community, respectful of the mods, and easy to understand. Dohnutts's posts appear to have been made by a developmentally disabled person with anger management issues whose first language is not English. And that doesn't mean that I'd be at all surprised if Dohnutts actually has an IQ of 160 and could kick my ass in poker.

The point is that I and others will tend to take him much less seriously if he continues to post in his current format and at his current content levels. So please, for your sake and the sake of the community, write concisely, coherently, and civilly when posting anywhere in the B&M Forum, but especially when posting in this thread.

I would imagine that it would be fair to keep the posts that relate to Live v. etable as they specifically relate to the room in question. Post relating to the room atmosphere, whether one type of game tends to be softer than the other, specific differences in the player experience (ie. smoke breaks, rebuys) the opinions of the room staff (dealers, floors) and how those feelings are portrayed to the players. Perhaps those should be allowed while discussions such as rigtarding, tipping/mistakes and theoretical poker pros should be moved or deleted.

Maybe this creates too much gray area or too much work for the mods, but I would think this is the fairest solution for the people that care about this topic and how it affects their home casino, not just the etable general discussion.

I also think there's too much moderation.

Rapini - to your point above, I think occasional topics that have a containment thread for it should still be allowed in the "other" thread UNTIL it consumes the other thread, not moderated simply because it can or may consume the thread.

Moderating posts because they CAN consume the other thread seems unnecessary, especially if it also relates to the other thread. For example, tipping specifically at one venue is appropriate in both threads I think (the tipping thread and the specific venue thread). Until there are . . . .I don't know . . . 10 posts in the other thread about tipping, why the need to moderate? Ten extra posts among hundreds or thousands in a thread surely cannot be seen as too cumbersome, even if off-topic, but ESPECIALLY if on-topic but just happened to have a specific containment thread. (I would use the 10 post rule for off-topic posts too.)

^^^ At least with specific regard to tipping, it almost always spirals out of control. Most users don't see that. Trust me, it's very necessary for tipping.

I'm a resourceful guy, so I've been able to obtain all the info I need (at least so far.) But thank you for the response, and I will be sure to post there if/when necessary.

There were two reasons for my previous post:

1. To draw emphasis to what, in my opinion, was a disconnect between the original intended purpose of the e-tables containment thread and the present
2. To spark a dialogue within the moderator group

Mission accomplished...

PS: CGK agrees 1000% with Lattimer about the need for a tipping containment thread...that's an absolute must.

I reread a lot of the posts that were allowed to stay in the HC thread and it seems like a lot of things were kept in--including Roger's original comparison of procedures @ best bet to HC that he claimed was deleted and sparked a lot of the debate (unless he posted the similar comments multiple times which I can't rule out).

I've said it in that thread and I'll mention it again here: I think the mods should use caution and perhaps err on the side of leaving posts that are borderline in that thread instead of moving them to the containment thread. A large part of the conversation and discussion that occurs in the poker room itself at HC is centered on the live vs. e-table debate and so it seems natural that the online thread would take on the same flavor with the recent developments.

Rapini.

Having experienced first hand the holy jihad type emotions on etable vs not etable, I can appreciate not wanting HC thread to get mucked up with that.

Your list of approved topics to discuss is pretty wide and I believe allows posters to discuss the aspect of the etables that our important to the poker economy in the room.

Action / ecosystem in the Cherokee room will go through alot of changes in the near term, all for the positive. Etable specific impact on that will obviously need to be discussed, and how you laid it out seems to leave lots of room for posters to discuss these important topics even if it involves etable vs not etable. I hope posters in HC thread take a second to read your post in this thread. It cleared up topic in my mind.

have to run. I have a interesting post on tipping and cant decide if I should post it in Borgata thread or Horsehoe Hammond. coin flip

Yes, with tipping, it ALMOST always spirals out of control. Same apparently with e-table vs. live, same with a bunch of other things there's probably a containment thread for.

My point is let it START to spiral out of control (10 posts . . . 7 if you want, 5 if you want - I don't know - just not 1 or 2 or even 3) then just move those posts. My hope (maybe unrealisitic, but I'm an optimist) is that someone on that thread just says, ok now we're spiraling out of control because all this has already been discussed in the tipping thread OR they just don't care enough about the discussion in that thread anymore and move on without even thinking about it again.

What do you lose by letting a topic be discussed for a few posts PRIOR to moving them?

Deterrence. If people know it's OK to talk about off-topic stuff for ten posts, as you suggest, then you'll have situations where there will be nine off-topic posts, one worthwhile post, and then nine more off-topic posts. The signal-to-noise ratio of threads plummet and the threads themselves become tedious to read.

In case you haven't seen me post this before, I'll say it again in case there's new eyes seeing this thread for the first time: it's my belief that every poster on 2+2 should have a place to discuss whatever he/she wants to discuss (within reason, i.e., no horse porn). And for the most part I think 2+2 is successful in that regard. You name a topic, I'll tell you where on 2+2 you can post about it. If I don't know off the top of my head, I'll ask in the mod forum for you (or you can ask in About the Forums yourself).

I think it's a little strange for users to make demands regarding both what they want to post about and where they want to post it given the wide variety of forums on 2+2. But because so many people demanded that they wanted to make off-topic posts in the B&M Forum, we made an entire subforum devoted to them -- the Regional Communities subforum. Please use it or any of the many other forums available to you on 2+2 if you feel that the B&M Forum's guidelines are inconsistent with the way you'd like to post.

As should have been made clear by the post where I recounted topics that were allowed v. deleted in the HC thread, I agree with almost everything these posters said and that IS how the PV and main B&M forums are moderated.

Rapini said it well, but here's an analogy for you. If someone applies for a fire permit, would the fire department approve it if they know that 90+% of the time the fire will grow out of control and they'll have to show up to put it out? No, they're going to deny it and stop the fire before it starts.

Re: Harrahs Cherokee

Well Done Mods, Aces Full.

Thanks for listening, thanks for responding, thanks for improving and clarifying policy so the mechanics of "why" is not a mystery.

The frustration levels of players in our area of the southern united states has been so high because we have had to travel so far at great expense for any poker entertainment. The sellout opening shows its not just a few crazy 2+2 players wanting a game. Maybe this will let some steam out of the boiler as well, and our group of players will have positive things to discuss.

For being over abused, underpaid, and misunderstood, you guys did a great job at bringing clarity to total chaos.

I make a reply to this pointing out that it's not absurd at all. If she used the word r****ff, every good player would be shushing her for providing lessons at the table.

Now I read this reply:
and realize that mine was apparently deleted. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I have to assume because I used the word r****ff, it became a strategy post.

(The dubious "absurd thinking" post, of course, must remain because it somehow doesn't contain any strategy. The thinly veiled bad beat stories in the same thread often remain because... well, because. The reply that's virtually identical to mine, except not using a fancy poker term.... well, maybe it will stay, maybe it won't. It'll be interesting to see.)

This forum gets stranger by the day. I'm not sure it's worth bothering to post on this forum, because my posts seem to get deleted by pure caprice. I'm not making promises to leave forever and I'll probably keep up with the threads I'm subscribed to. But for the rest, and for the moment, nh gg gl

Did you report the post you mention? Also, do you consent to me posting the PMs we've sent each other regarding this issue?

No, I try not to report posts I don't think have done anything wrong. And frankly allowing someone else to take credit for my ideas is no more annoying than watching wrong thinking go uncountered because of busybody moderation.

That's fine. The root issue hasn't changed.

You're just wrong. It's wrong to allow people to make incoherent statements on a B&M thread and not allow other people to follow up by rebutting them. It leads to a one-sided debate where ignorant views are privileged above knowledgeable ones.

A THREAD THAT ALLOWS IGNORANT CRITIQUES OF OTHER PEOPLE'S THINKING AS "ABSURD" IS NOT CATEGORICALLY DISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE "STRATEGY" YOU WANT TO ERADICATE. It's just a question of degree.

And your proposed solution to start a companion thread on a strategy forum totally misses the point. The point is that we all benefit by allowing ignorant statements to be discussed -- civilly! -- and rebutted through logical argument. That needs to happen in the same place, not in a thread on another forum that no one knows about.

You've ruined your forum. Since you're stubborn and don't appear to see that, it sounds like M&B will be a better home for me to discuss b&m poker.

Oh Rapini. You ruin everything, you ruiner. You've ruined it so ruined that your haters just. can't. quit. you. despite the the fact that M&B is there, and has been there a while now.

I just found this thread, and haven't read everything, but here goes.

Yes, my original post about comparison of procedures @ best bet to HC was deleted (whether dealers have their own trays, or the tray stays with the table). I mentioned this because someone complained about how long the HC dealers were taking to count the tray each time a new dealer sat down. I reposted it.

Here are some other comments I have:

1. In general, almost all of defenses of the moderators about Harrah's Cherokee (HC) thread seem to be coming from people who do not participate in that thread.
2. When a comment was made that there are people who doubt the randomness of PokerPro tables, I replied that some people don't think the 1969 moon landing was real either, but so what? There was no other discussion of 1969 moon landing, and no need to delete it. I certainly did not claim it was fake. The statement about 1969 moon landing was made as an analogy, not as a proposition.
3. The main reason why the discussion of PokePro needs to take place on the HC thread is that there have been a fairly significant number of people who are thinking about coming to Cherokee, but say they won't due to electronic tables. But they have never seen them and don't understand them. Many think it is like Internet poker, where you don't see your opponents. Also, many don't understand that there are some real advantages over live dealers, and this needs to be explained so that they are willing to come to Cherokee and try it. So it has everything to do with Cherokee, and not just a theoretical argument about e-tables.
4. The PokerPro discussion on the Cherokee thread has never gotten out hand, even short term, before moderators showed up and start deleting stuff. It is one of the most civilized threads on 2+2.
5. There is no containment problem on the Cherokee thread for any subject posted there. This is figment of the imagination of certain moderators who are apparently paranoid schizophrenics. Containment? We are not dealing with nuclear waste here, just poker.
6. If the moderators want to do something constructive, the should more aggressively moderate the other 99% of the forum threads, which quite often feature blatantly libelous posts, moral degenerates, and other scumbags. Why it is that peaceful, constructive discussions get savaged by machete wielding moderators, while the many other cesspool threads are allowed continue unabated?
7. My suspicion is that the the real reason why moderators have been deleting my posts is because they think I work for, or have some association with PokerPro (or Cherokee Casino), and they want to prevent spam (a laudable objective). That is categorically false. I play poker at Cherokee because it is the only place I can play within one day driving distance. When I see people say that they won't come to Cherokee because of the PokerPro tables, then I try and present the facts, and suggest they try them, so that there will be other players there when I play. Not because I have anything to do with Cherokee or PokerPro. I doubt the moderators will be honest and respond to this allegation.

In summary, I will say that I participate in a lot of other forums besides 2+2 on various other subjects (work related, automobiles that I own, etc) and the moderation here is the worst I have ever seen. It's not really moderation, but more akin to total a slash and burn policy and annihilation of any rational thought or discussion of topics, while at the same time allowing degenerate trash on many of the other threads.

That is an admission of guilt and bias, and completely and totally disqualifies you from objective moderation of that subject. It has everything to do with it.

That would be like a judge saying to a defendant (just after handing down a guilty verdict):

"Personally, I don't like you at all, but my verdict that you are guilty as charged has nothing to do with that."

If a judge said that, he would be removed from office.

The recurring theme is that the moderator seems to think a nice tidy division can always be imposed between topic A and topic B. That's not always true, and when it isn't true, letting one side of a debate touch on a forbidden topic and then silencing those who rebut tends to chill reasonable debate. Mission accomplished?

^^ I only skimmed your post, but I'll respond that if you see trash, etc, in other threads it would be helpful if you reported those posts. We don't get to read everything, so things can slip by simply because they were never seen by Rapini/RR/myself. We only take care of posts that we come across ourselves or from post reports.

edit: referring to post #999

We're not robots, we're human beings, and human beings have opinions on things. But I'm able to compartmentalize those feelings and be objective, better than most people actually. I've taken actions against things that I'm personally for, and vice versa.

The question from the members who post in the Cherokee thread is "Why?". Why is that rule necessary in the HC thread? Yes, we understand that you are just enforcing the rule, but why does such a ridiculous rule exist? And even if it was needed previously in some other thread, why does it still need to be applied to the Cherokee thread?

Just repeating "we are following moderator rules about containment..." is not an explanation, it is more akin to a Nazi prison guard saying "I was just following orders."

And now this topic has finally been Godwinned!

Did you read Rapini's post #981?

Suuure you are.

You say you are objective, but I don't believe you. The only difference between you and me is that you are the moderator and I am not. If I were the moderator, I would get rid of rampant scum that exists on this forum, and leave those who want to intelligently discuss things alone. Please don't tell that you don't know where the scum is located, as were are not stupid, and we all see those other threads.

I wonder, did anyone actually hit the "report post" button because they were upset that we were talking about PokerPro tables in the Cherokee thread?

If we were talking about something either really good or really bad that a live dealer did at some other poker room. then why can't we discuss the electronic dealers at Cherokee? Is there a "live dealer containment thread" to isolate such discussions from the poker venue thread where it occurred?