Do you yet understand that the error was yours?

I mean, that's a lot of yelling at people and getting angry over something that was 100% your fault.

That seems like a really complicated situation, and you've set yourself up for a lot of aggravation. Plus, it can't really feel very good to yell and curse at strangers, can it?

Next time, pay attention. If you fail to pay attention, don't flip your lid at other people, because the error was yours.

Yours.

You made this mistake. You had complete control over how to handle it. You seem to have chosen the worst path possible.

And hey, that's okay. We all make mistakes. But the lesson here is (1) pay attention, and (2) don't flip your lid at the poker table when you fail to do so.

This is YOUR FAULT.

YOURS.

Until you understand and accept this, you run the risk of having this happen all over again.

Interesting. Especially since I see something similar several times a week while playing 1/2 or 1/3 at various casinos in Vegas. Seat 1, unaware that seat 10 has cards, folds to action by player in seat 8 or 9. Seat 1's fold is followed in quick succession by seats 2,3,4, etc., each acting on a fold by the person to their immediate right. Not once have I ever seen seat 10's hand declared to be dead. In fact, not once has the possibility ever even been raised or discussed.

At the intro stakes, we tend to be rather forgiving, because most people have no idea what's going on anyway.

At the higher stakes, we assume people know what they're doing. Except for the whales. They also get a very long leash.

Don't ever show your cards until pot is pushed to you. Mistakes happen when players fold out of turn, its your job to protect yourself

the options for the old guy should have been relegated to call or fold (for the flop only), after three people mucked and he didn't protect his action. on the turn, all options are open again.

also, the dealer should have been calling attention to the fact that it was seat 9's action and attempting to stop the other people from mucking. that doesn't change the fact, that the OP, as a player in the pot with money in the middle, needs to pay closer attention to all the players involved in the hand and be more careful when exposing your cards.

Lesson 1: Don't show your hand EVER.

Lesson 2: If you're going to show your hand, make sure EVERYONE has folded.

Lesson 3: WSOP rules and cash game rules are not the same

Lesson 4: House rules are final.

Lesson 5: Who cares if he looked at your hand and knew what you had. That doesn't make a difference.

Lesson 6: This story doesn't exist if your tens hold up.


Honestly, All I am reading is a bad beat story.

You REALLY think this was 100% OP's fault? There is NO blame whatsoever, not even a teeny bit, that could be affixed to the player behind OP who failed to protect his action, or to the players that acted out of turn, or to the dealer who let the players act out of turn without saying anything?

I'm ready to sprinkle the whole lot of 'em with blame. Plenty to go around.

'Course OP is the one who lost $1200. The player who didn't protect his action won ~$1400, the other players don't care, and the dealer likely got a nice tip from the 9-seat which he most definitely would not have gotten from OP if the floor had ruled as OP wished. So everybody but OP came out happy. So perhaps the floor just ruled in the manner most likely to please the most people.

Which does bring us back to the fact OP could have prevented the whole thing by not tabling his TT. So while the others are not blameless, they weren't hurt by it and several profited from it. So yeah, protect yourself. But when you fail, and the ruling doesn't go your way, don't throw a fit. If you want to protest the ruling, and file a grievance with Gaming, proceed--but you can do that without screaming, cursing, and having to be restrained by security.

OP, are you suggesting that the dealer should not have collected the prematurely-mucked cards? Is that standard?

OP has no leg to stand on.He failed to protect his hand.
Part of protecting your hand is to ensure the betting action is to you before acting.
He didn't do that.
Doesn't matter if the whole table folds or bets out of turn,protect your hand.
Saw a massive pot lost because a guy went all in and lost because his cards weren't protected,he left em on the table and were mucked by accident.
Bottom line,mistakes happen.When you screw up take it like a man.

this thread got me thinking of a situation that could occur

I am in the 5 seat in a pot with the 4 seat, 6, 7, and 8 seats. the 4 seat is first to act after the flop and bets. I am looking at the 4 seat deciding what I want to do and grab some chips. I am still looking at the 4 seat. While I am looking the 6 7 and 8 seats rapidly muck and I push in my raise not seeing this or simultaneously to the 8 seat mucking. Does my raise stand? How about if I never saw them fold but it was brought to my attention by the dealer as I am still contemplating on the amount to raise. Can I raise then? I think in both situations my raise should stand. What is everyone else's opinion?

While I think OP got a crap ruling from the floor, it's hard to work up much sympathy for him after a) not protecting his hand and b) deciding to call a $1400 all-in with pocket tens.

He could have just folded and chalked up the $180 mistake as a lesson learned; he's the one that decided to make it a $1200 lesson....

at the Bellagio the ruling would be that the person can call or fold. This actually happened tonight in my 20/40 game. The three players to the left of UTG folded and then UTG tried to raise. The floor was called and he was only allowed to call or fold. He folded btw.

I can empathize with you OP, you did get a bit shafted in this whole situation.

However, villain's hand is not going to be killed here. He probably should have to call or fold on the flop, but then every action will be available to him on the turn, and the situation is not likely to get better for you.

Yelling and swearing compounded everything with no hope of help. Yes, the dealer and other players made mistakes along the way, but the most egregious mistake was yours: protect your hand until the pot is pushed. Furthermore, why would you want to show this hand at all? I imagine it's some kind of ego boost as you were obviously very stressed throughout the situation based on your heated reactions.

Seat 9 did nothing whatsoever to try to stop the action or to "protect his action"

The dealer totally skipped him, collected Seats 1, 4 & 6 pfr cards, then I showed my hand, then the dealer noticed reached out to stop me from showing what was already seen by all. You know the rest.

TechPoker this is 100% correct on all counts. Well said. Parx ruling had me baffled.

[QUOTE=AngusThermopyle;31419901]1. Next time, don't try to get a soul read on one opponent when there are 3 other players in the pot.

Fair enough, but one of the biggest mistakes in live poker is waiting until someone makes a move on you then trying to get a read. Since he’s the pfr he may give off something I can use if he shoves on me. I simply attempt to pick up tells before the blank poker face look we’ve all seen after someone shoves when you basically get nothing.

2. By calling the bet, you accepted the decision. If no river K, you going to the GC? Don't think so.

That doesn’t change imo the horrendous ruling by the house. That has to change for anyone who may be subject to the same situation in the future at Parx.

3. What do you want done? How much money you want?

I’m going to request the Parx poker room rules to see if protection of action exists which I’m pretty sure it does. Robert’s Rules on Poker is pretty much the basis for all existing poker room rules regardless of tournies or cash games.

No so fast my friend. I suggest you look up Robert's Rules on Poker i.e. Bob Ciaffone which is the basis for all poker room regardless of tourney or cash games are concerned. Where do you think the rules come from, even if there's a slight deviation it all points to the basic rule set.

Look at this post in October here for further proof.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...elgin-1115110/

Yes that's exactly what i'm suggesting. In this case, I raise to $180 total, the dealer call out raised counted it down, then his attention should have been on seat 9 declaring "$180. to you sir"

Instead he says & I quote "Well seat 1 folded out of turn so I grabbed his cards" Say what? If he's turned to seat 9 he would have never seen seat 1 fold, nor seats 4 & 6.

I accept blame for not realizing seat 9 still had live cards & surely for showing my hand, absolutely. No doubt!

But i'm not sure how you can fail to see the faults of all parties involved. Seat 9 for not protecting his action, the dealer for claiming he was distracted by Seat 1 fold then grabbing & mucking Seats 4 & 6 as well, then saying hold a minute, Seat 9 hand is still live, others for folding out of turn, the floor, etc.

My thoughts.

1. Yeah, the dealer makes a mistake by not stopping the action, however this is still greatly OPs fault because he wasn't paying attention either.

2. Calling seat 9 a "pos angle shooter" is a douche thing to do when you screwed up.

3. Getting pissed off and making a scene is not going to get you anywhere. You could easily get yourself thrown out or banned.

4. I think your call is god awful. You describe him as a nitty old man who hasn't put more than $40 into a pot, so I'm not giving him credit on doing this as a bluff. Especially considering it another 1k+ to call.

5. This is just a long, drama-filled bad beat story. If you win this hand this post is never created.

Finally...

Yes, the dealer could have done a better job and seat 9 could have alerted the table he still hand a hand. However you could have...

- Paid attention to the other players in the hand.

- Waited until the pot got push to show.

- Not show your hand regardless.

- Not made a scene and acted like a child.


At the end of the day, there is way more fault on OP than anybody else.

Fair enough. Had the floor ruled that his hand could not be killed, which is what they did say. He should have only been able to call the $180. raise or fold. I’m 100% sure he folds but if he calls then turn was 7, I ship immediately. I’m sb he’s bb, he folds.

I’ve shown on occasion & everyone’s seen a player flash a hand to a player they respect or whatnot. Most just muck afterwards while the pot is being push. Occasionally others may ask to see, show one show all rule. I showed the rest of the table so there would be no thoughts that we’re colluding.

I see how this could have played out differently as you described. However, I don't think that action is as likely as you say. Villain may fold on the flop, but...

Villain: All in
Floor: You can't raise. You must call or fold.
Villain: OK. I call and I'm all in on the turn.
Floor: You are not first to act on the turn.
Villain: OK. I call.
Dealer: <burns and turns>
Hero: <shoves> ???

If your read is he's bluffing and likely to continue bluffing then why would you bet? You just allow villain to play perfectly against you especially as he (presumably) knows your exact holding.

Mathematically, I come up with $385 in the pot so calling $180 villain only needs a little under 32% to call, and then there is implied odds and fold equity. Villain's "read" puts you on a one pair no draw hand. 25.5% equity and a tight old man image could be an overpair. All in.

It's a crappy situation, but I think you might have achieved more by being reasonable during the discussion. Villain seemed to be a douche about the whole thing too, but it's been said similarly before: This is poker. It's only about the money.

I understand the show hand bit as well -- it's not that big of a deal, but I am always 100% sure I verify the pot is mine before releasing my hand with or without showing anyone.

Just say you had an open-ender with a backdoor flush draw. Let them think about if that was even possible let alone likely. Then maybe chuckle and say "set" and then maybe show the overpair.

1) Dealer not stopping the action and collecting mucked hands is really bad.

2) It's very standard for seat 9s hand to be mucked with 2 or more actions behind and no verbal declaration. I've played in dozens of card rooms in CA and NV and have never seen it otherwise. Rules do vary, but it's more likely an incorrect ruling. This rule is to prevent people from angling to get position by hiding cards etc.

3) Weather seat 9 saw your hand or not has absolutely no bearing since you were the one to show the hand. By making this the issue you probably clouded the situation and increased the chances for an incorrect ruling.

4) Your blow up didn't help. Next time calmly explain the situation and the applicable rule.

5) Once you accept the ruling by calling, it's just another bad beat.

I still don't understand your logic what villain should only be allowed to call or fold. You're the one that ****ed up and turned your hand over. Why is villain getting punished?

Because he didn't protect his action, and allowed three people behind him to fold without comment while the action was his.

To me, the main issue is how much time expired between seat 1 folding and all the other action. The OP says 5 seconds. Even taken literally, if the Villian was looking at his chips or otherwise obviously thinking about how much to bet, I would probably cut him slack. And more likely, "5 seconds" as written is really only 2-3 seconds in real time, and I have certainly seen three hands folded in less time than that.

All told, it's a judgement call whether or not you kill seat 9s hand; absent definitive evidence of angling, or strong guidance from the dealer, I wouldn't, and I've never seen it happen at Parx for this reason.

I don't know of any rule basis that would allow you to restrict his hand to just calling or folding, though I do understand how that might seem to be a good way to mitigate the damage to the most possible parties.

As mentioned earlier, in my ruling, the bet stands, OP gets to call or fold, and seat 9 gets a warning after the hand to protect his action or face more severe penalties next time. OP probably does too for his ridiculous behavior.