Parx casino $2-5 game, 4:30a Super Bowl Sunday, 6-handed play 3 players from broken table getting ready to make it a full table. I’m in seat 7 in sb, stack $1200. with pocket 10’s, button seat 6 stack $600 makes it $25, I smooth call in position, gray haired old guy seat 9 to right of dealer stack $1400 limp calls as does seats 1 & 4.

Flop 2 3 9 rainbow, everyone checks to preflop raiser 6 to my right, he cb $75, I announced raise, grab tower of red chips, dealer announces raise to table $180 total. At this point I’m not concerned with anyone other than raiser so I turn slightly toward him to get a read on him when dealer announces my raise total, he looks dejected, cool.

I turn back toward dealer I see seat 1 fold & dealer collecting his cards, ditto seat 4, ditto seat 6 original raiser, I then courtesy show seat 6 my 10’s then the entire table, the dealer then shoots his hands out & says no it’s still a player with a hand! Say what, I’m confused.

Look to my left seat 9 gray haired old guy looks right at my 10’s, looks at my face surprised face, I turn my 10’s back over face down not that it mattered, everyone seen the hand, even the 3 players waiting to fill the table. Dealer now looks toward gray haired old guy seat 9 for his action; he grabs his entire $1400 stack, looks me right in the face & announces “all-in!” This entire sequence from this paragraph happened in a matter of about 5 seconds

I’m now dumbfounded, like WTF just happened? I say to the dealer the hand is over right? He then says “I tried to tell you a player still had a hand” Again, say what? I ask for the floor.

2+2 please give me your insights. All opinions are welcome. I will finish the story in a bit.

if the story occurred as you describe, i see 3 faults:

1) players folding out of turn

2) dealer not controlling the game. "players, please fold in turn, action is still on seat 9"

3) you did not protect your hand.

Obviously you didn't protect your hand and other players folded out of turn, as u mentioned this occurred at 4:30 am... While playing at those wee hours of the night, please be more careful and aware of whats happening around you... cause alot of dealers and players are on zombie mode.

many KITNs.

dealer: for collecting seat 1, 4, and 6's cards rather than telling them to STOP and pointing at seat 9 telling him it was his action.

seat 1: for acting out of turn

seat 9: for not protecting his action (though if only a few seconds went by, he probably has some defense)

you: for not protecting your action and ensuring the pot was coming your way before showing your cards

--

result: seat 9's AI plays, you get to decide whether to call.

Count out 5 seconds to yourself. Don't say or think anything, except for picturing action moving around a table.

I can wait.

Seemed longer than you thought, probably. A lot can happen in five seconds.

Everybody screwed up here. But since it was your money, you screwed up the most.

Absolutely. Players so often use the excuse, "but the guy to my right acted!" It's possible anybody reading this right now has done this. In fact, the OP did it, because he acted after the last guy folded, completely missing that the person immediately after him didn't act.

Pay attention to everybody. Had the players folding out of turn paid attention to more than the 1-foot bubble around them, they would have noticed they were acting out of turn. Had p215j been keeping tabs on everybody involved in the hand with him, he would have noticed a distinct lack of folding from the person who still had cards, and been able to prevent this cascade of misery.

Yes, but to a lesser extent. As a dealer, I do everything I can to try to pay attention to everything all at once. I still occasionally get yelled at for not noticing a slight twitch or hear a mumbled comment because I was also paying attention to nine other things, but that's neither here nor there.

In this case, the dealer was looking at the action in seat 9. I don't know about you, but I don't have eyes on the back of my head. I can't see what seat 1 is doing when I'm looking directly at seat 9. I do try to be aware of all things at all times, but sometimes things happen directly behind you. I'm a good dealer, but I've occasionally turned around to a cascade of turbo folds while watching one person's action (you want me to call a string bet, right?). Even saying "stop, stop, STOP!" often doesn't wake people out of their "but the guy to my right folded!" mentality. And once a hand is mucked, it's mucked, regardless of order. I HAVE to scoop it in. Can you imagine the disaster arising from someone winning a pot after grabbing back a mucked hand?

This is, again, why the players in the hand should pay attention, especially the people making big bets. It's your money. The people who are in a hurry to fold don't give a crap about you.

Yes.

If you want to show your cards, do it after the pot is being pushed your way. When you're in a hand, pay attention to the other people in a hand with you. It's your money, yet you're acting so carelessly with it.

Many places would kill Opponent's hand because 3 people acted behind him.

So, it depends on what the dealer told the floor. How quick the folds, if Seat 9 asked for Time, etc.

If they do not kill it, you now have a choice, call or fold.

There are also some places that would not kill his hand, but would restrict his options to calling and folding. I don't like this one bit, but I have seen it in rule sets.

This one's pretty easy I think. You didn't protect your hand, so the action stands and you can call or fold. The players who folded out of turn get a warning to be more careful, but that's about it.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is an obvious bluff and we can easily call and win a bigger pot off this mistake? On the ruling, floor probably warns everyone to protect their action and continues the game with action on you to call or fold.

floor can potentially kill the player's hand for significant action behind him... it really depends on the details in this case though, imo.

also, how the hell are you both the sb and in position?

It was my first reaction too. But...... it depends on how decent a player (or how drunk) I think this old guy is. If I have him pegged as semi-decent, I might consider it a bluff, and call off my stack, or I might fold the hand and chalk it up as an expensive lesson.

If on the other hand I have him pegged as a particularly good player, I would never call off in this position. He would be expecting you to think of it as a bluff and to call, and so he is getting it all in with arguably a better hand.

The way it is played, and with typical old man nittiness (and he does have a decent stack behind him), he could just as easily be playing a hand like pocket Jacks here. In the 9 seat with this action, he would consider his move carefully which would have given the other players time to fold out of turn.

Lastly, whilst it is very unlikely he is holding the other two 10s in the deck, I reckon 99% of 2+2ers would play it exactly this way if that was their holding.

[QUOTE=AngusThermopyle;31401240]Many places would kill Opponent's hand because 3 people acted behind him.
QUOTE]

Really? That is a horrible rule. So everytime I have a big decision to make I also have to play dealer and make sure no one acts out of turn.

Do I have to get people drinks if I get up to use the restroom, too?

RRoP
Does Parx use the last rule? Did 'seat 9' try to stop the action?

I've definitely played in rooms where once "significant action" happens, then a change cannot occur. So the 3 folds, dealer collecting those hands, etc... would limit the shover's options to just calling or folding.

Its possible you could make a case to kill the hand also, since the player did nothing to alert the dealer, and it takes more than 5 seconds for 3 people to fold and cards to be collected. Even if it was 5 seconds, the guy still should have piped up. Instead he chose to angle shoot, gaining as much free info but improperly obtained info as possible.

Certainly a raise here from him is out of the question, as it puts you at a completely unfair disadvantage. This is true whether you showed your cards or not. In this situation, that is actually just extra info. What if you didn't show your cards? What if 3 people folded after him, you never show your cards and just wait for dealer to ship you pot, and then he reminds dealer he's still in the hand and goes all in?

Same ruling, he can't do it.

You don't have to make sure no one acts out of turn. You just have to be aware it is your turn to act when it is, and say something, like 'time', if you are thinking about your decision and see players fold out of turn.

I think it is a reasonable rule.

And yes, in some rooms, you do have to get drinks for the table at certain times:

Do you really see these as comparable? Do you not understand that you ARE responsible for paying attention to the action and protecting your hand?

I guess it does make sense to avoid angle-shooting. I'm not an angle-shoter; so I don't really think like them. Usually a player or the dealer says something quickly when people start folding out of turn so never really thought about it. I really need to read the rule book, I guess.

But anyway back to the OP, I guess keep this rule in the back of the mind for future reference(I know I will). But ultimately remember to protect your hand until you're awarded the pot or you muck.

In the room I work in, seat would not be able to raise but his hand would be live. His options would be call or fold. He should have stopped anyone from folding behind him if he intended to act.

OP admitted he was not paying attention to anyone but the raiser, he screwed up big time.

Dealer screwed up also for not keeping track of the action and failing to stop players from folding OOT.

However, room rules trump everything above if the room rule allows Seat 9 to raise.

It would be a horrible rule but rooms rules are what counts.

I'm guessing that the floor allowed the raise to stand and OP folded to it.

How about telling us what happened OP?

Easily? They're both super deep, over 200 bb's.

Yeah, the guy can have 88, I guess. He might also have 99 and be hoping Op thinks like you.

Wouldn't you feel like a fool to sit there all day and run your stack up from 4-500 to 1200, only to turboflush it with a gutsy hero call?

This. I don't see how Seat 9 can be allowed to do anything but call or fold after allowing people to behind him to fold without letting the table know he had yet to act. Whether or not OP showed his cards or not is irrelevant (although he should still get a KITN for not protecting his hand).

I've done this sitting in Seat 1 and not realizing Seat 9 was in the hand due to the mammoth size of the dealer. Thankfully it was as very small pot...but it was a good lesson and now if I do decide to show my cards (which is rare) I never do it until the pot has been pushed to me. Yes it might make me look like a silly nit. I don't care; you can laugh at me all you want I'll be too busy counting my chips.

Thank you all for your insights & contributions to this thread. The correct ruling should have been, straight from the WSOP site below under Betting and Raising.

http://www.wsop.com/poker-rules/index.asp

Betting and Raising

Players must call “time” in order to retain their right to act. Should they not make the call before three or more subsequent players have acted on their hand, they will lose the right to act.

In other words his hand should be killed period! Even if they granted him to keep his hand live, no way he should be able to raise all-in as TechPoker described perfectly!
BTW this happened exactly as I’m telling it, no embellishments. I’m shocked no one on this forum was there to corroborate the events.

To finish the story; While floor is on the way over, seat 9 says aloud “I did nothing wrong“ I then tell him he’s an angle shooting p.o.s.! {figure it out )} Floor comes, I’m heated, dealer starts to explain & says he attempted to warn me that seat 9 still had a hand. True, sure did… way after the fact that three people folded & he collected their cards & mucked them! Basically he puts it on me. Seat 9 just flat out lied by saying he didn’t know my hand & hadn’t seen my hand, attempting to continue his angle shoot. No one else said a word even though everyone seen the hand. (That’s fine, they let the 3 principals explain it to floor.)

I said to the floor supervisor if that’s true then why are the other players hand in the muck? This includes seat 6 the preflop raiser, who’s RIGHT NEXT TO ME. I then asked the dealer why would he not have his attention on seat 9 the very next person in the hand waiting for him to act if he had live cards & had yet to act, his answer “oh, because seat 1 folded out of turn” WTH? Yeah, seats 4 & 6 too. Doesn’t even make any sense, since his attention should be focused on seat 9 then seats 1, 4, & 6 & ultimately me.

Then I turn to seat 9, with venom in my voice, who btw hadn’t even made a bet of over $40. in the cpl hrs I played with him, now all of a sudden he shoves $1400 all-in! I asked why he is flat out lying when he knows he’s seen my hand. Remember he looked me right at my hand, my surprised face, THEN moved all-in. In fact, everyone knew my hand, nevertheless the person to my left!

With everyone looking on:

Me “Sir, what’s my hand?”

Him “I don’t know your hand sir, I haven’t seen it”

Me “You angle shooting lying p.o.s., what’s my hand sir?”

Him “I don’t know your hand sir, I haven’t seen it”

I’m boiling…

Floor lady decides seat 9 all-in action is legit. WTF? Now I’m outraged, a bit loud & the whole poker floor is looking over, some come over, as does the Shift Manager. The lady supervisor, dealer & I are all attempting to explain, I say seat 9 hand should be dead period, shift manager telling me I’m screaming & calm down. I’m in disbelief about the whole thing, he keeps trying to tone me down so that the rest of the floor is not disturbed. Hello, my friend the cat’s out of the bag already. Seat 9 still lying about not seeing my hand, which is a 100% lie. I ask him again how he’s now moved all-in but hasn’t bet more than $40 since he’s been moved to the table 90 minutes ago. He has no answer. Shift Manager ultimately tells me, lady supervisor cannot & therefore nor will he kill seat 9 hand. I’m in the twilight zone now.

Me “I can’t believe this bleep! You know what, I know you don’t got bleep! I call!”

Seat 9 looks sick to his stomach, everyone’s in shock that I called… about 25 people circled around us

2 3 9 turn card 7, river………… K

Seat 9 turns up AKos, everyone’s in shock, all you hear is “OMG” I can feel my temperature rise 25 degrees, he then turns to me and says;

“What do you have sir?”

I stood up pointed said “You p.o.s. you know what I had” ready to go ballistic, security guy grabbed me from behind, I’m loudly talking to Shift Manager saying now do you see he’s full of bleep & did see my hand & angle shooted & you supported that nonsense! I argue for 10 mins to no avail. Seat 9 is given the $2700+ pot, all are in shock at what just happened.

I requested the video, they said I couldn’t request it. I was told only PA Gaming Commission can request the video. I’m now in the process of appealing to PA Gaming Commission, to be continued…

1. Next time, don't try to get a soul read on one opponent when there are 3 other players in the pot.

2. By calling the bet, you accepted the decision. If no river K, you going to the GC? Don't think so.

3. What do you want done? How much money you want?

First WSOP and cash game rules are not the same !

Second You will NEVER get ANYWHERE by swearing and caring on like a raving idiot when you call for a decision !

Where I work the 9 seat would have been allowed to call not raise!

Cash game rules vary from room to room and have MANY differences to tournament rules.

For all the people saying that Seat 9 can only call or fold, that would apply only to the flop right? On the turn he can push?

The problem is twofold. First issue is whether or not the guy's hand is dead. Parx ruled it isn't dead. My guess is that most rooms wouldn't kill it either. And you will be open to a push on the turn at the very least and possibly a push on the flop.

The second issue is that you live in the real world. Once a decision is made you are going to have to live with it. Getting all worked up over it sounds like a bad idea. Especially in the moment. So now, you are faced with a decision. You know in your heart the old man saw your hand - and he is under no obligation to help you out by saying he did see it because the hand is still in play. He has pushed and you have a tough choice. You make the correct decision under duress. Congratulations.

The fact is you lost the hand because he sucked out on you. You took the opportunity to call down a bluff that had escalated the pot by a huge amount because you made a mental error and showed your hand with another player still in the hand. Yes, the dealer also made a mistake or two but the dealer isn't risking any money on the hand and it is up to you to protect your hand.

Instead of trying to learn something from this experience you are trying to drum up support so that you can feel justified in trying to take two bites out of the same apple. If it was me, I would look at why I am turning over my TT after the hand is over and before the pot was shipped to me. And maybe even after the pot was shipped to me.

You made a nice call and got screwed by the deck. Learn how to take a beat. And learn how to protect your hand.

correct returns to normal action on the turn