When you look at comparable games, you don't find any comparable games, because games like the Commerce 1/2 are big enough to attract people from all over the country. As LHE dies just about everywhere, Commerce has been somewhat insulated by the fact that they have immigration.

The games are getting tougher, yes. They would under any policy.

These people flocking from the Internet? Yeah, they hastened the decline of the game. Because they're too tight? No, because they're very good players. I bet they VPIP higher than the OP thinks, even granting that OP was using a bit of hyperbole. As a matter of fact, despite never having played in the game, I'd be willing to give an O/U on a typical Internet Exile's FR VPIP: 19. Even at like .5/1 pre-BF, most players had settled into a pretty narrow range of VPIPs.

Is there any policy that can rescue LHE? Probably not. Games are just gonna get tougher until inflation devalues the stakes to where 20/40-40/80 was pre-Moneymaker.

yup

by definition if new player buyins are not entering any game it degrades over time. nothing will change that.

I don't play limit, but do you see a of steady flow of new players playing the game (at any level) or more likely keep seeing the same people again and again.

drop rake is such utter garbage. time is by by the fairest way to charge rake.
it's absurd poker rooms live or online reward tight players with drop rake.
you shouldn't pay less per hour for your seat than someone who drives action in the game.

This would ring true more if everyone paid their own Time, but, in highish stakes games Time pots are completely the norm, thus, the scales will still be tipped in favor of the tighter player.

Re: Time pots, individual Time, dropped rake: If this game(s) is highly dependent as to what form of a drop the game should have, then that tells me that they have serious problems all together/game is just too tight with not enough new faces coming into it and staying long term.

Fairest to who? The casino ends up giving away a lot of free time so it doesn't seem fairest to the casino

Don't know why they'd be giving away free time. While I know some places do this occasionally when the game is short, no one is forcing them to do so.

In southern CA there is a big problem with people walking a lot, just taking up the seat of a paying customer, while avoiding the drop and lowering the house take. Changing (back) to a time charge system would relieve that problem.

They give away free time just as a function of how time is collected.
If they don;t collect time when the game starts up thats free time. Every new player who sits down after the collection is free. If the game is 9 handed and as the new dealer sits down 3 players get up. The new dealer collects time from 6 players. By the time they call the next three players to the game collection is done and the new players aren't paying. So that half hour they are collecting 2/3 of the rake. Whereas in a raked game as soon as the new players play they are contributing.

Yeah, that stuff does happen at most places, but they could change procedures so very little of it happens. And regardless it would still be possible to account for the average number of players paying time and still make it a revenue neutral switch from rake or drop if they wanted to do so.

There is one sense that a time collection still shifts the rake onto the high VPIP players and that is when a collection pot is used.

In L.A., the collection pot is voluntary. The good VPIP players realize the collection pot screws them and opt out.

Sometimes the high VPIP players are in the collection pot but even they realize eventually that they are getting raped and stop.

The collection pot is another thing, e.g. kills, half kills, playing with the rock, etc., the nits always lobby for that penalizes the action players.

Why there is no collection pot in the Bellagio time collection games?

Maybe I just haven't played high enough there to see it.

Wilbur

The Bike has a bad history with house players. In the past, they relied heavily on them and they have hurt more than they helped. In the past couple of iterations they were a major contributory factor to the collapse of the 40-80 LHE.

Casinos have a problem. How do you get games started?

The low limit games start themselves because they draw from a large pool of players and either the games go all night or enough players wander in between breakfast and early afternoon to start a game.

The high limit (white chip and above) start according to their own logic and the casino has no way of affecting them.

The middle limits (20-40, 40-80, and 60-120) are where house players can be key. These are bread and butter games that are very profitable and will go all day and late into the night if they can just get started in the morning or around lunchtime. In order to spread and grow them paramount is that they run every day. The kiss of death is for word to get around the game routinely goes short, breaks, or simply isn’t spread.


House players who show up in the morning, start the games, and play short are the traditional solution.

The Bike used house players in the their last 3 attempts to establish these middle limit games and the house players ended up being a major factor in their failure.

A year ago (not sure of the exact time), the Bike hired house players to get the 40-80 going again. I know these players and they are all honest ethical people who played straight. There was no problem with their ethics, table manners, or friendly play.

The problem was that they were all tight, patient, good players who generally played better than the paying customers. The mediocre and recreational players know when they are outclassed and the 40-80, even with 3 players to start the game and keep it going was on life support and eventually collapsed.

Mediocre players don’t like a tight game where 3 good aggressive players are isolation raising or 3-betting every time they enter the hand, the hand goes to the flop heads up, and it is bet and folded or bet/raised/folded on the flop a large portion of the time.

When the players are the same every day and every day they are spaced evenly around the table (which is the natural seat selection for these players when there are more than one in the game), the mediocre and recreational players correctly view that as a game to avoid.

This is how the Bike’s house players strangled the 40-80 in the last iteration.

Two iterations ago, the Bike took the opposite approach and hired mediocre house players of questionable ethics.

The house players played “friendly” with each other. I don’t mean active collusion but they checked the river when the pot got heads up, had agreements not to bluff or semi-bluff on the flop and river, etc. These kind of things are commonplace in the higher limits but regular players, especially the losing ones, got upset when the house players did it.

Because some of the Bike players were marginal at the levels they were hired to play, they got into bankroll problems and complained about being forced to give up their seats to customers when the game filled up. When the game was bad they graciously gave up their seats but when the games was good they didn’t want to leave, arguing to management that they couldn’t survive in the games if this was the rule. Management allowed them to keep their seats with regulars waiting on the board and the situation got ugly.

Regulars were pissed when they had to wait. The house players got pissed when the regulars complained. The Bike tried to establish rules when the house players had to give up their seats. Exceptions were made for fish and players who juiced the floor men. Players who weren’t getting the VIP treatment got angry they weren’t getting special treatment and the whole mess became a reason players took their action elsewhere.

In addition, many house players are poor short game players and the Bike (and the Commerce today) let the house players sit out when the game went 4 handed. When this caused the game to break the regular players, especially the ones who wanted to keep playing got angry.

I could go into greater detail but you get the general jist of how the Bike’s house players hurt more than they helped.

The Bike also used hidden props but in most top section there are no secrets and the hidden props were pretty much known and the same bad feelings existed between many of the regulars and the hidden props for the same reasons stated above.

I could go on but in my experience house players generally cause more problems than they are worth and historically at the Bike they have done way more harm than good.

So what’s the solution to getting the crucial middle limit games going in the morning and early afternoon?

First, ditch the house players.

Second, pay or incentivize the existing player base to show up and start the games.

I’ve played at casinos that had “early bird” specials where the players who started a game would get real value from the casino.

The simplest way is to simply pay cash. Players that start or fill up the initial table each day and play for the first 3 hours get $100.

I’ve never seen this technique used at the major L.A. casinos but if informed management did a cost benefit analysis I’m sure the cash bonus would come out to less than paying the salaries of 2 or 3 hours players every day.

Most of the supervisory staff are older white males (55+) who have been around decades and they aren’t exactly tech savvy LOL but it amazes me how little the L.A. cardrooms use social media.

Related to ditching the house players is using twitter or simple texting to let players know when a game has started or when an “early bird” promotion is available.

At 10AM text or twitter your player base and let them know that at 1030 the game is going to be started and the original 9 players will get the $100 bonus. You only need two or three players to respond to get the game going sans house players, their salaries, and the problems they create.

Bike management (pretty much the same people who failed in the past) failed to understand the dynamics of relying heavily on house players and, in the past, ended up shooting themselves with their own gun.

The same could happen again. The effort to steal the Commerce's action could be doomed to failure at the outset if they don't read this post, take what is written her to heart, acknowledge the past, and not let history repeat itself.

I think there are 3 or 4 more parts to this set of posts. I’ll try to write them as time permits.

Wilbur

The Bike already has the nicest IMHO high limit room.

The tables are farther apart and the room is cleaner by far.

The Commerce chairs and cushions are the most disgusting thing at any casino I have ever seen.

Next time you go there take a close look. The fabric is covered with nasty stains. Many stains are positioned right where players poop hole is located. Yuck!

The frames are bent so that some chairs are a couple of inches lower than others and many are missing the leg caps so they stick in the carpet.

If you want to faint, sniff one of the auxiliary cushions. They smell like ass. Maybe you like this but I don't. LOL.

I saw a girl in a miniskirt who took napkins and put them down on the chair just like using a toilet seat cover in a public bathroom. Frankly I understand why she was doing it. That gives you a hint of how bad the chairs and cushions are.

None of this is surprising after you realize they are the same chairs and cushions that haven't been reupholstered or replaced since the top section opened.

The Commerce tables are also more closely spaced than at The Bike and it is not uncommon to be getting constantly bumped by players and the service staff if you sit in one of the end seats.

The Bike on the other hand is clean and sanitary.

The tables are spaced farther apart and no one ever jostles or bumps you while you play.

The chairs are clean and sanitary.

The Bikes physical environment is better than the Commerce IMHO.

Wilbur

I do think the Bicycle is nicer than the Commerce, but not as nice as Hawaiian Gardens top section.

Last year I played quite a bit in the 20/40 OE at Bike. It was always on the farthest back table, where for some reason it was extremely hot and stuffy. The wifi was also crappy.

Fundamentally, you don't seem to understand that nobody stumbles into a 100/200. It's not like a 3/6 game where someone who doesn't know how to play pulls out $100 from his wallet and gives it a shot. A 100/200 buyin is more than what you can readily get; people who play the game PLAN to be in the game (aside from a few people who run good ay lower limits or bink a jackpot). Someone who plays terribly at 3/6 can have a median job and donk off 5+ BB/hr on Friday night no problem; someone who donks off 5+ BB/hr at 100/200 is either super rich (rare) or isn't going to last more than a night or two.

It should be painfully obvious that the largest regular LHE game in the country is full of the best LHE players in the country, and that nobody as awful as a 3/6 fish.

So what brings these people out to play? Are they otherwise waiting around? No, they're at Commerce or in other midstakes games. Do they care who's playing? Very much so. I can virtually guarantee that the firat question anyone asks is, "Who else is playing?" Because nobody's going to schlep to the Bike just to find out (a) the game is worse or even equal to the one at Commerce, or (b) they can't get a seat and have to play 20/40 or whatever the second highest stakes at Bike would be.

These games do NOT start randomly.

So Commerce has the worst physical environment and the worst player personalities.

What does that say about what drives a game?

1. Offer complete line-up of limits from high to low. You can't expect to have many players make jump from 10/20 to 100/200. Make the room attractive to all limits.

2. Do everything they can to support online poker in California. An increased player pool will result in the ability to support games in more than one location. Rather than each room trying to "steal" players.

3. Try to higher the best dealers and floor staff from Commerce. Over pay for them.

Nobody is playing at Commerce over the Bike because they think the dealers and floor staff are better.

What does ANY of this have to do with what I said to you? I'm trying to explain to you what you'll need to get a sustainable game(I have years of experience at it fwiw) and you wanna tell me about smelly chairs and filthy carpets? Although...now I know that the Bike must really have some serious issues if the players are still choosing to play in the litter box. And the only reason why I even mentioned new tables/tvs etc. was because I was explaining to another poster, that, even with all the upgrades sometimes it just doesn't matter.

What is YOUR plan to start your game at the Bike? Do you have one?


You sound like a complainer not a doer. For your sake that better not be true.

This is how it should work( and if it CAN'T work like this, then you're simply going to have to come to the realization that there just isn't a big enough player pool for the game you're looking to play)

1) No more House players. They suck anyway for the game. If your game isn't working without them, then the overall player pool is just too small to have a game, sorry to say. Same happened to me in one of the mix games that I used to play in at the Borgata...small player pool, not enough bad players= no more game.

2) Find out from other players(your key players, NOT the winning players, nor your House players) what are the best times of the day to start your game and/or find out what days of the week will work best for them. You might not be able to get the game going 24/7 or even close to that. The $40/80 LHE at the Borgata is off the charts, no props, no special treatment given to the players but it only goes ~3 or 4 days a week. But_its_a_very_beatable_game, which is my point.

3) The high limit games are not going to be handed to you on a silver platter like your low limit games are---there's not enough players! So you HAVE to make some sacrifices and know that your game might only go half of the time that you had expected. Bottom line: A game that goes half of the time but is GOOD is a hell of a lot better than a game that goes everyday but is filled with nits and whiny little bastards. YOU work around THEM. Don't forget that.

Are there really places that pay $900 to get a game started? That sounds absurd. I can't imagine that being good business... but I won't claim my market is the norm. Is that the norm some places???

Here's the problem: you are essentially asking how to build a game without the nits and solid pros. If you succeed in doing that, the nits and solid pros will then leave commerce for your new game

raise the rake

#BugstudTheorem

Your point about the player pool not being big enough is a valid one.

The word is out that Hawaiian Gardens is also going to mount an effort to steal the Commerce's top section actin when their new casino opens.

So the constructive suggestions apply to HG too.

Wilbur.

My information is not rock solid so someone who knows better can correct me but L.A. yellow and brown chip props make 2-4K a month in salary.

If 2 or 3 of them are employed, giving $100 to the players that start a game is not that different from employing props.

Wilbur

I just had to chime in because this thread, and pretty much every idea in it is laughable.

There are a couple reasons why commerce is King for high-stakes.

1. Always a game with good action.

2. The commerce has the best "casino food" in the country. You cannot go out to eat in 85% of southern California restaurants and get better food.

3. The atmosphere is as calm as it's gonna get for the commerce.. But you still feel the chaos just a bit which the majority of the degens like.

4 (Bascially same as three). There are a good number of ladies @ the commerce. There are a lot of ladies for fight nights, a lot of people come to the commerce to watch games and go to the bar on weekends. It is really the only LA casino the attracts people who are NOT there to gamble. Besides for real low stakes games, men playing the 10/20 20/40nl probably have the highest make up of being single... And don't mind going to bar right next door after winning.

5. Commerce has always been known to pay out no questions asked. To attract a large percentage of asain players, the commerce has always been known to pay you your winnings fast and discreetly. Unless you win a jackpot or tournament, you more than likely won't be filling out paperwork.


If anyone is serious about taking the throne from the commerce, they would need spend $ they don't have in fundamentally outclassing the commerce.

On the things that count, very few establishments in the world can compete with the commerce... Never mind its rinky dink competitor across the freeway.

Hidden props? Isn't that illegal? How can it be that many people knew about them and never reported it?