This is my first post to 2+2 in a long time. I am a long time Los Angeles High Limit player. Over last 20 years I have been a regular at The Bicycle, Commerce, Hustler and Hollywood Park. I regularly play the 40-80, 60-120, 100-200 and occasionally the 200-400 LHE games.

The imminent opening of the Bicycle Casino Hotel is generating a ton of excitement among regular L.A. high limit players because for several years, the high limit LHE players have been forced to play The Commerce exclusively. None of the other L.A. casinos has been able to steal and keep any the Commerce’s action and if you wish to play these limits The Commerce is the only game in town.

The imminent opening of the Bicycle Casino excites because with the opening of the hotel, the Bike is about to mount a major effort to rejuvenate their top section room. In my opinion, there is a wide and deep well of bad will between the Commerce and their regular players which creates an opening for other L.A. casinos to steal players and action from the Commerce. It is not the point of this post to discuss the root causes of the discontent but if there was a decent alternative in L.A.,the players and action would gladly flee the Commerce.

I don’t want to get too excited about the Bikes attempt to steal Commerce’s high limit action because frankly the Bike has tried several times in the last 20 years and failed miserably. With management mostly the same they’ll probably go to the same ineffective bag of tricks they tried the last couple of times and fail again.

The point of this and following posts is to offer some advice to Bike management about what concrete changes the Bike can make to steal those players and action. I don’t mean things that cost money like lower collections, rake backs, handing out tickets to the Staples Center Box or other expensive measures. My suggestions are things that the Bike can do that are free or low cost and which will make their games more attractive to the players.

Most of these suggested moves can be used by any of the Commerce’s competitor’s and it is my hope that this post will make its way to the management of the Bike or the Commerce's other competitors who will see the wisdom here and act on it.

So let’s get started.

The number one thing the Bike (and this applies to the Hustler, Hawaiian Gardens, and Hollywood Park too) is to get on Bravo Poker or an equivalent so that players can go online and see what games are being spread.
Putting the games being spread and the wait lists is a such a common sense move and cost virtually nothing, its’ shocking that only The Commerce does it.

It will be impossible for the Bike to getting any high limit action unless they go online with this information. Players will simply not make the long drive to the Bike without knowing the game they want to play is currently being spread and is unlikely to go short and break.

The Commerce only lists the number of tables at each game/limit and the number of players on the waiting list but it always amazes how much players can discern from these two items and how they make their decision about when and whether to come in.

Before the internet, the Commerce stole the 40-80 and higher action by simply having a game going 24/7. Players knew that driving to the commerce in the afternoon meant that there would be a game to play in and that was sufficient to get all the action.

With the internet the smaller rooms can compensate now by putting this information online.

It amazes me that only the Commerce currently does this.

This post has gotten long enough so I’ll get to number 2, 3, 4, etc. in an upcoming post.

Wilbur

I think the idea that you know when the game goes is key.

Nobody who plays these games wants to sit around with their hand in their pants waiting for a text to let them know a game is starting. I believe that a regular but more infrequent game is better than an irregular but more frequent game.

So I recommend (a) picking something which is nominally non-competitive with Commerce, such as an 80/160, and then (b) start it at a set time regularly, e.g., Tuesdays at noon. Pay enough droolers to be there so that the game goes.

Over time, as the games take shape on their own, decrease the number of droolers you pay, and increase the frequency that the game is started.

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On a separate note, I'm not an LA guy so maybe things have changed, but the last I heard, Bike couldn't even keep a 40/80 going with 3-4 props in the game.

You won't have a sustainable architecture if you don't have a ladder, so if there's no regular 30/60-40/80 ish game I wouldn't shoot higher.

Welcome to 2+2! I will leave this thread alone as you will get general answers, but there is a thread here designated for LA-area specific discussion that may help you - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20...es-ca-1142598/

Agree, running a game at a time and date certain, posting it on Bravo, and making sure you have a solid core of ten players on that wait list give a room great optics, that certain Je nais c'est quas (sic?), example- Peppermill Reno, Nevada , the fact that Jimmy gets large limit games going jut this way. btw, this room uses both Bravo and a wait lit on the casino website that lists first names ( or aliases like XXX, initials, etc.)

Make the area you play the game special, maybe the upper plaza is too large? We've all see 80 NL up on the plaza occasionally. Well, a dedicated area is only as special as the lowest game allowed in the area. Foxwoods used to cordon off a game of 5-10 and 10-25 or higher. The casual observer sure knew something special as hppening in that area. Bellagio- Bobbys room , Aria- The Ivey room. You get the picture.

Yep, a room needs a supporting cast of lower limits that people can learn as they go. PLO players lament at the lack of games around the country, yet they all want a game going with a rather high BI for a novice player to jump in. ($500 and up) I don't see much limit at The Bike above 8-16. Perhaps make that 10-20?

A dedicated host can make a big difference. Capitol Casino in Sacramento has a dedicated host for one table when they are able to spread 5-10 nl or higher. And they only have perhaps 10-12 tables. Chips, a cup of coffee, parking validation, on and on, just those little things that make playing in this game a bit more special than 4-8 limit. If the bike has a small, nice, dedicated section for 20-40 lhe and my be 5-10 nl and higher, one dedicated host for those game may be magical to the players.

If you do give players something, ie., tickets, bling, a sirloin steak, do not do it in secret. You will miss someone, they will not speak up and they will be hurt. And you lose them. I once told the owner of a country club if you can't do something for every member, in a public way, then don't do it for anyone. To this day he said it is a great piece of advice, since he was new to the golf business at the time. His members all paid the same price, and all poker players are playing a game at the same BI. Sure, give them stuff, but make it known. And other will notice and want to move up in limits. This mindset worked for General Motors for years, from a Chevy to a Cadillac.

I wish the bike well, I play there a lot more than the C when in LA.

Seems like it would be tough to do without hiring props or lowering the rake. Hire props that will start any game/any limit (to an extent) and you may have a shot.

I think props are meh.

First, props tend to be winners. Look at the crew that a certain blogger used to talk about, would that entice you to play?

Second, props probably want more hours than 8 hours a week. And the paperwork to get them in the house would be excessive.

Lowering the rake can be done with promos, which are more easily taken away later than actually lowered rake. LATB does (or did the one time I watched it) a giveaway where the person who won the most pots got an iPad. You can vary the prize, but it's a nice setup because you reward people who play loose.

What if in addition to exact games being spread, from the app on your phone, you could also see name of players at each table and on waitlist (would only be the name they gave brush and that shows on waitlist, not their full name)

What exactly are the benefits of grabbing the high limit prima donnas?

Do they pay that much more rake/drop ?

They would if they're not playing at the Bike now.

OP, you say you don't want to spend any money, but your first suggestion is Bravo, pretty spendy.

I think there's something to be said for walking into the room and telling floor I would like to play limit Holdem some stakes between 40 and 2-4, and floor saying sure, that guy will start heads up+. Then we start a game and once it's running who knows who will sit. And yea it may be expensive as you would have to hire some people near 40 hours a week to make this happen. But hats what it would probably take.

I know a few years back (like 5-6 maybe?) when I would go to Cali with a friend he liked to go to huster and I'd go with him just to start games with props.

I agree that's what it would take to get a regular, frequent game. But do you think there's a way to start a regular, infrequwnt game?

I feel sorry for those props.

If you are not already at capacity (that is the new games aren't displacing old games) then even if they pay no more than the lower limit games they are still providing additional revenue (obviously if you spend more than you make to bring them in that is not a benefit).

The second thing the Bike, and other L.A. casinos, needs to change is the way rake/collection is taken.

I am not talking about the amount of rake taken but revenue neutral changes that will make the game more attractive to regular players.

Most players simply bitch and moan about the amount of collection but pay little attention to how the collection method affects the game.

The casinos goal, besides generating revenue, is to create an action oriented game where there is lots of betting, calling, and raising—what players refer to as an action game.

Not all players want such games. In the old days, there were cadres of “old white men” who wanted to play tight ABC poker where they could grind out a living running their premium hands up against nubes who have too wide a starting range to ever win in the long term.

Most of the “old white me” are gone (DonZ excepted LOL). They couldn’t survive when the internet players arrived in the casinos.

They have been replaced by numerous young internet players who play the same restricted pre-flop hand ranges and the same ABC fit and fold style of play. I am not talking about all or even a majority of players who cut their teeth on the internet but there is a contingent who fit the profile.

These players always lobby casino management to make action killing changes that favor them and penalize players with a more active style of play. An example of such a change is when a kill or half kill is put in.

All the other players, the recreational players and the superior professionals, prefer not to play in games that are built to favor these players.

What do I mean by games built to favor the ultra-tight fit and fold players?
I mean low blind games where this type of player don’t pay their proportionate share of the collection.

A big change was made ten years ago (not sure of the exact year) when the Commerce changed from time to drop. Commerce wanted to increase the rake/collection and had two choices, raise the hourly fee or switch to a drop. They chose to abandon the hourly fee and go to a drop. A similar change recently occurred in the Bellagio 40-80. The applies only to the 20-40 and 40-80 because the bigger games are still time games.

The problem with this change, even if it had been revenue neutral (which it wasn’t) was twofold.

First it shifted the collection away from the tight players. Sitting for 3 or 4 orbits and seeing 1 flop became a lot cheaper and stealing blinds became a lot less profitable. Suddenly grinding out ½ a big bet an hour was transformed into grinding out 1 big bet an hour---a 100% increase in win rate for these players.

Second, the shift from time to drop significantly lowered the amount of money in the blinds. In a 40-80 game, the money in the blind to be fought over dropped by about 10%. In the 20-40 it dropped about 30%.

These changes simultaneously made nit style play more practical, reduced the betting and raising in a typical pot, created fewer multi-way pots and made skill moves like constantly stealing the blinds less profitable.

The result at the Commerce has been a nitting up of the games. There is no reason for this because the casino could collect the same revenue out of the game without the undesirable side effects.

The easiest remedy is to go back to collecting time but raise the rate so that it takes the same money as the current collection.

The second way is keep the drop but increase the blinds so the drop doesn’t lower the amount left in the pot. This could be accomplished by making the blinds 3 and 4 chips rather than 2 and 4 chips, i.e. $70 in the 40-80 and $35 in the 20-40. This would increase the blinds generating more betting, raising, and more multi-way action on the flop and subsequent streets.

Going back to time collection, albeit at a higher rate, solves both problems. Keeping the drop but raising the blinds only solves one of them. So I think going back to time is the better solution.

A significant problem with going back to time is staff resistance because it increases their workload especially of the floor man. The accounting and neutralizing the constant angle shooting eats up the time and patience of the staff. Floor men are always uniformly and strongly against abandoning the drop and returning to the time collection.

This is where superior card room management, which the bike hasn’t had in the past, and poor management begins to show. The Bike management needs to make theoretically well grounded changes that will improve the attractiveness of their games compared to the Commerce. Making these changes in the collection and blinds is such a place.

When the Bike does this, they will have a chance of stealing the Commerce’s top section action.

Wilbur.

P.S. Moderator. If these posts belong in another forum feel free to move it.

Just to be clear, the Bellagio 40 has always be a time game. In April the 20 was changed to a raked game, but roughly a month later was changed back to time and the 20 and 40 now pay an extra dollar a down

Much of the logic used is so convoluted and twisted that you don't even see how you repeatedly contradict yourself. Your intentions seem God and pure. But you ideas implemented would likely lead to the opposite results than you expect. At least in my opinion.

Couple points/Qs: how can going to time solve the problem, nuts will pay even less with time pots.

Also, i think if people are not bumhunting and stuff, playing tigh in full ring limit Holdem is perfect acceptable.

I agree with you, doing something like the Venetian 15-30 with 5-10 blinds is stupid but I don't think it's fair that anyone gets to determine what constitutes the correct number of hands to play.

You think they play to tight, hey think you play to many hands, so you guys play a lot and see who wins the money

Here's an example that's pretty much complete opposite. Ocassionally people will Say lets do a round of straddles or similar. Yes it will create more action but I hate it and almost always say no (in limit) becusse usually what's happening is somebody is tilting like crazy and they are gonna straddle no matter what, and they are smart enough to realize it's probably not a winning play so they try and get everyone else to do it also to make it EV neutral.

If somebody wants to just drink and straddle and have a good time, sure I'll buy them a drink and straddle. But when somebody that plays everyday wants me to do it I'n usually gonna pass.

I agree with you that one style of play shouldn't be favored over another and I also don't argue with your point that a nitty style of play can be profitable with the right makeup of the remaining players at the table.

What I want to discuss is what style of play should casino management favor if their goal is to steal action from The Commerce top section.

If you took all the nitty players from the Commerce and made them play at the Bike, no additional players would play the Bike.

If you take the Commerce action players and made them play at the Bike, you would attract more players to the Bike.

I don't play the 25-50 at the Hustler but the players I know who do all tout the active nature of the game as the reason they like playing there.

Wilbur

Well of course you should want the action players, same goes for what the casino management should want, too.

If the game is not going to be an everyday game but you want to make sure that it runs with a good degree of regularity, then you have to build around the action players and find out what days/time works best for them. I play in the $75-150 stud game at Foxwoods, and like clockwork, it goes every Wed., Thurs., Fri., and Sat. And everyone knows that "Bill" comes every Wed. and Thurs., and "Joe" comes only on Fri. I know that the game starts every Wed. and Thurs. at 8 am sharp and on Fri. and Sat. it starts a little later, but, the common denominator as to what days of the week it will get off and what time the game will begin all have to do with what the action players want. It's a Time collection game and it comes out of the first pot; it doesn't cause that nittiness lock down mode because the action is just too good to make a dent. Plus, games with an ante/bring-in will naturally create more action especially when the structure is on the higher side.

You said that The Bike has repeatedly failed for you in the past but you have to first understand WHY it failed. Was management too hard nosed about certain procedures? Did they just there with a thumb up their ass when it came down to trying to get the ball rolling and help you to get these games going? Or were the players just a bunch of whiny complainers that The Bike just didn't want to cater to? A prime example of a very well ran room regarding this stuff is PARX; they go above and beyond with customer service yet at the same time they don't just give stuff away either. Bottom line, the players(and your floorpeople for that matter) want to be treated like they actually belong in the room and feel welcomed when they walk thru the door. But if management is poor and not willing to change for the good, then you're probably going to have to work that much harder in keeping that game(s) in tact. It's a lot of work sometimes but it's really just part of your job description as a professional poker player.

What I have found over the years, and what really has made these higher limit games stay, is when the majority of the players who play in that game are bankrolled for WAY higher than what the limits are. Probably the reason why the high limit stud game at Foxwoods has been so incredibly successful for all these years.

I'm going to repeat this again(trust me on this cause I'm also a mixed game player): no one wants to play in games where there's just too much bitching and moaning going on. And if Time pots are going to create that type of atmosphere too much? Then you'll need to stop that and just have everyone pay their own Time. DON'T cater to the winning players. You'll be "catered" to in other ways($), but as far as everything else goes, it's all about them and making them feel comfortable.

The players that you want in a game don't notice a raked pot nearly as much as they do paying time and I'd want to keep it that way. Of course, I'm an old white man (EAD) so what do I know? Anyway, I'd try something innovative: Try to get the Bike to build their own private room for the higher limits and build really, really nice custom tables and shower the player w/ amenities like comped drinks and massages and concierge service for w/e they want. Spoil them rotten so that they don't want to go anywhere else.

ETA: A special menu w/ better offerings than on the main floor would be a nice touch.

I don't have any suggestions for the Bike, but I will suggest that you ask a mod to combine parts 1 and 2 into a single thread. All additional parts should be posted in that same thread.

My $.02

Frankly, any sympathy I had for you has evaporated.

When you said there was a problem with the Commerce, I assumed it was ... an actual problem with the Commerce.

Not that these young Internet punks play too tight. People can play however they want, and at the limits you're talking about, you should be drooling at the prospect of someone VPIPing sub-10. But even if they're actual tough players, it's a Big Boy game where people know how to play Big Boy poker, so put on your Big Boy pants and learn how to beat them. Not complain about how they don't pay their fair share of rake.

You're not asking how to move the Commerce game to the Bike. You're asking if there's magically another 30-40 people in the LA area who don't currently gamble thousands of dollars at a time but would come out and gamble thousands of dollars at a time and be really really bad at it, without word of this getting to the Commerce regs who would instantly swarm over.

And the answer to that is no.

I dunno, it sounded to me like he wanted a room which would promote more action not more nittiness with its policies, which would in turn improve and increase the game player pool.

I'm not in the area and don't really know the local player pool well, so I dunno whether this is currently a problem, and if so whether the problem would be solved with this approach.

I can say that I am a tourist in this approximate set of games, and that I come to LA 1-2 times per year specifically to play in these games. I currently come to Commerce because they have a hotel, because the game is always running, and they do a few things that make my life easier (like they will take me to and from LAX for free).

But over the past few years, my very small sample size has seen the game there mirror the game everywhere else: it's getting fewer games and fewer tables, and the action is drying up on those tables that do still go. I play a more action oriented game and don't prefer very tight, tough games, so as a result I have been generally slowing down my trips to LA/Commerce and replacing them with trips elsewhere (Vegas, or non-poker).

Again, I don't know whether the changes described here will really make much of a difference (I tend to doubt it), but figured I would at least give my viewpoint.

Moving from Drop --> Time Charge is never revenue neutral. It is almost always a drop in revenue for the House.

It sounds nice on paper but the reality of it all is that, a room like The Bike(in which OP has already explained how poor their management is/was) is not going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a private room w/high end tables. It's funny cause The Borgata did exactly that a few years ago for the super duper high limit games---they built a BEAUTIFUL room adjacent to their high limit room with big beautiful sofas and expensive wood/tables and gigantic tvs etc.(you get the picture) and you know what? No one wanted to play in it! And do you know why? Cause they wanted(needed is more like it) to be SEEN by the other players in the regular room. Ego. See, if it was just an elevated room but not something that was completely seperate(Bellagio) then it would probably work.

...And things like free massages are just too expensive to throw around and just not duable for any long term regularity.

You know what I look for in a room? Good games. First and foremost the game just has to be good. And it has to have promise of LASTING for X amount of hours on X day and X day every single week. And that's where OP comes in. He has to be willing to do some legwork. Maybe one way is to have a meeting with someone from The Bike and see if they will offer certain game(s) a slight reduction in rake and/or Time.

Aside from that, all management/floorpeople/hosts need to do is show up with is a very positive attitude who actually act as if they care about these players.

Nothing more.