Sure, we can talk all day about semantics and definitions. We've had threads on here before attempting to define "angling". The truth is that people simply don't agree on where to draw the boundaries for those distinctions. Added to that, not everybody views everything the same way, so they won't agree on definitions nor will they agree on where to rank things on the independently-generated scales of offensiveness.

I prefer to live clear on the other side of that discussion. If what I'm doing drops a toe into the muddiness, then I've already gone too far. But that's just me.

I have more respect for the people saying, "Yeah, I'm trying to get a better hand to muck," than for those who claim not to understand why anybody would ever have a problem with their accurately declaring the final hand. At least the first camp is honest about it. You can't have a discussion with someone who won't acknowledge the nuance and context of the situation.

I think I always put myself in the shoes of the alleged victim, and you always put yourself in the shoes of the alleged perpetrator. I think, "oh stop complaining," and you think "I would never do that because x, y, and z." We're both right. In answering the question posed, I am just saying I don't think it's a dirty angle like OP asks, vs would I do this or is it good for the game. I don't see it as much of anything to get excited over, is all.

I agree, I was just trying to get out of the "angle" discussion, because it never goes well.

The OP asked how bad it was. I said it was mild. My interest is in a clean, fast, happy game. This kind of thing gets in the way of my goals, but it's not keeping me up at night.

You know how many times I seen "Aces" announced in this situation,
only to have their opponent say "I've got TWO pair, sevens and deuces."?

Then they get mad when it's explained that the aces have a bigger two pair.
"Why didn't you say you had two pair?"

Just announcing you have a pocket pair can obfuscate the situation also.

I tend to agree with this. We've had several threads recently regarding players who intentionally misrepresent their hands at showdown, hoping the other guy will muck, etc. These actions have drawn a lot of criticism as angling or cheating, correctly IMO.
But now we have a thread about someone who's declaring his hand accurately, and in a way which really isn't misleading. He does have 2 pair, for goodness sake. I suppose he could declare his hand a little more explicitly ("I have 2 pair, 4's and 3's"?), but basically I take this declaration as "I have two pair"(period), (which is accurate), and asking if the other guy can beat that.
I think that assuming that the other player can read his own hand isn't unreasonable, and I find it hard to see this as much of an angle.
Perhaps he's hoping that the other guy will misread his own hand, and not realize that he too, has two pair (or better)?? Maybe if you're playing kindergarten poker with extremely inexperienced players, it might (rarely) work out that way, I suppose, but I really find it very hard to get worked up about this.

Wasn't criticizing you or saying you shouldn't have a problem. My comment is more of a general one, meant to illustrate how easily these problems can be avoided by doing very simple things.

This is exactly what he's doing. People attempt this all the time.

Yes. In my game (which is an advanced game, at higher limits, but we sometimes get newbies) you sometimes see this from people [read: regs I play with all the time] who never verbally declare their hands except in this one instance. It's clear that they are trying to "angle" their way into something, violating the spirit but not the letter of the declaration.

As others have said, though, they are correctly calling their hands, so I don't get too mad at them. I just file a note, make sure I always read and understand their hands myself before I fold, try to protect any novices if necessary, and give them no benefit of the doubt in other potentially angling situations.

Of someone folds a better hand to this then they are an idiot. It is not an angle and he did nothing wrong /

BB should stop being an angling slow-rolling douche and either show or muck. Problem solved.

I have also seen people say "i have kings" on a 87422 board, then someone proudly turns over their 87 and gets upset at the person with kings for NOT saying that they have 2 pair when they realize they aren't getting the money.

People that lose poker hands are going to be cranky, I don't' have a problem with saying that you have 2 pair when you have 2 pair, but some people do. they're going to get upset, but they're probably going to get upset anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

There's a difference between holding an overpair to the board, and saying "two pair" with an underpair, isn't there?

I'd rather err on the side of my opponent not immediately realizing his two pair is beat, than on the side of tricking him into thinking his top pair is no good.

No, there is not.

You have 2p either way, so saying you have 2p is fine. You do not need to qualify your hand by saying I have a big 2p or I have a small 2p. Saying you have 2p when you have 2p is not misleading.

Yes, there is a difference---this one^ makes you a slow roller.

Why not specify immediately? What's the goal?

Idk what the goal is as I do not do this. I just don't find anything wrong with it. What is wrong with saying "I have a set" or "I have a full house" or "I have 2 pair"?

Maybe the guys goal is that the other guy will show a flush or something that beats his 2p and then he can muck his embarrassing small pocket pair, idk.

Either way this situation is quite common so why make a big deal about it?

Not a big deal, I just find it a little odd.

"Hey, guys, I think announcing 'two pair' when you hold an underpair to the board might be a bit of a trick to get someone to fold a better hand. What do you think?"

"Well, when I have an overpair and announce it, sometimes people get mad because they don't see the board is paired."

I don't see how one is a response to the other.

I agree it's not a huge deal, I just don't understand how people can't recognize the differences in these situations. If you really want someone to know your cards, show your cards.

To keep from helping my opponent read his hand?

If he doesn't realize he has two pair I don't feel sorry for him if he folds.
I don't think I should be required to announce my hand so precisely that it helps him read his hand or the board.

If someone is not comfortable with their hand reading abilities they
can just turn their hand up at showdown and get help reading their hand.

"I have a small pair plus the pair on board makes two pair.
If you have a pair the pair on board gives you two pair also."

"I have the jack high straight on the board, don't throw your hand away you also have the same straight."

Accurately announcing "two pair" and waiting for your opponent to
show better or say "that's good" so you can show is perfectly acceptable.

This is important. Hand reading is a skill up until the moment a player tables his hand at showdown. We draw a hard line there, and it works. Setting additional lines at any point before that would blur things.

The reason I don't announce "Jack high flush" when my high card is the Jack of suit on an Ace-high flush board is because it's not my responsibility to help another player read his hand. Hell, if I were to help him too much before he tables his cards, we'd agree it's a OPTAH violation.

Agreed.


Agreed.

Re-read the op and tell me what gives you any indication that the Bb didn't immediately show his hand.

If the board read 4235A, I'd have no ill thought at all about announcing "Straight!" while tabling my K9 (no ill as long as I don't think on all the bad play that got me to that spot lol). And if it induced a guy to fold his A6 without showing, gg me.

They say "The hand ends at showdown". I contend "The hand ends when you've shown down".

I'm not breaking any rules, or over-stating my hand, I'm merely announcing the strength of the best 5-card poker hand I can make with the 7 cards at my disposal. I don't even think this is an etiquette violation so long as I don't slow-roll.

not an angle. Correct declaration of your hand is not against the rules.

these two things are not mutually exclusive. in fact, the reason some people pull this "two pair" move is to get you to muck without breaking the rules. read: angle