How dirty is this? I see this exact situation often.

Live MTT
Utg limps with 44
Sb calls, Bb checks J7
732 flop. Bb bets, Utg calls
8 turn.ck ck
3 river.
Bb checks.
Utg says " I check. I have 2 pair"
He doesn't table hand.

Thoughts?

The standard defence is, "I was truthfully stating the strength of my hand." The standard complaint is, "You didn't accurately portray what makes your hand unique with the board."

Mild, because people like to pretend they're stupid and don't understand the potential problem here, and then feel all cute and smug about it. There's really nothing to be done.

105 degrees: mildly obtuse

No big deal, not an angle.

As I've said many times, 98% of rules dustups, angle shots, etc can be avoided by doing two simple things:

- turning your hand over at showdown directly in front of you
- stating your bet verbally

Do these things, and you never have a problem with the rules. This situation fits into the first one. If J7 guy just turns over his hand, 44 guy can say he was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll and it wouldn't matter.

Not an angle to verbally declare your hand out of turn, but not table it?

You don't think he is attempting to get a better hand to muck?

He has two pair. He's waiting for the BB to show first. I don't have a problem with either of these.

I understand all that and J7 won the hand, but that doesn't change me having a problem with what an experienced player did.

Yeah - this is one of the angles Sam Grafton used all the time at the International Club [and I am sure elsewhere]

Used to annoy me - that he would say 'two pair' - at a 1/1 game and get the fish to fold winning hands. He even had an argument as a dealer told him he had to open first as he was closest to the button [he got up and said he wasn't coming back again... but was there the next day]

I think this is a mean angle as it will annoy new players who feel they have been cheated. Or who will then think it's part of the game to angle.

Not at all. It's truthful. If idiots want to muck winning hands and you accidentally make them do that, that's not your problem.

I tell my kids this all the time. The only way someone takes advantage of you is if you let them.

It has been said before (about eleventy billion times in this forum): TABLE YOUR GOD DAMN HAND. If you don't protect yourself and your action, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Ever. End of story.

This is not even remotely an angle or poor etiquette.

Board: 73283.

Bb bets the flop and the utg calls, then, the next two streets go 'check, check.' When utg announces that he has two pair, why are you coming to the conclusion that he was trying to get the bb to fold a better hand? For all we know, utg felt that pocket 44 had a decent chance of being the best hand! No, seriously, think about it...

If you were the bb, what hand would you bet the flop with but then check both the turn and the river with? Would you really check a 7 on the turn? You might check something like middle or bottom pair but you wouldn't check middle pair on the river when you made trips, would you? So, the only reasonable hand that I can put bb on, would be a 2 (and utg would beat that hand). I would go so far to say that not only did utg NOT angleshoot, but I think he may have missed a value bet (the way this hand played out). Wtf, who the hell checks a pair w/that dry board on the turn? And you guys think that saying "two pair" is an angle? Wow. Just wow.

The part about utg 'acting out of turn' by announcing his "two pair" in an attempt to get a better hand to fold could just as easily have been his way of allowing the bb to save face by not having to turn over air and/ or a missed draw or w/e.

Now, could the utg player just as easily turned up the two fours? Yeah, he could've, I suppose. But he didn't. Why didn't bb table his hand first? Are we going to say that was an angle? No, I wouldn't think that at all; perhaps he should have turned his hand over first but sometimes things don't go 100% as you think they should go in poker, but it's not uncommon for players to jump the gun once in awhile or not show first when it's their time to show first (etc etc). I see it all the time. It's rarely anything to get worked up over.

I used to only see really old guys stating their hand as two pair when there was a pair on the board, and I figured it was because they used to play mostly stud, where there were no shared pairs.

The two viewpoints on this will never agree. I feel those defending the action are being a bit disingenuous with not recognizing how it's truthful but not transparent, but it is what it is. As I said, it's mild. You're not going to change any minds in either direction.

Remind me again, isn't BB 1st to show?

Show your hand in turn, don't play stupid word-games at showdown, ignore others who may or may not be doing so. Problem solved.

At showdown, everybody is first to show. The "order of showdown" is when people can't do it on their own.

Not an angle. If someone says two pair, then any nonpaired hand knows he beats and folds. If he also has a pair, then it goes further.

If I have a flush, I don't go "J high flush" I just say "flush". If someone else has a flush, then we get down to a greater level of detail. Same with a straight. If I have the second nut straight, I don't say "straight to the Jack" or whatever. I just say straight.

I mean, really, how nitty do you have to be so that you think declaring your hand correctly is an angle shoot?

"****ing angle shooter--you said you had two pair!"
"Uh, I do have two pair"
"that doesn't matter, it's a ****ing angleshoot!!"

If the board ran out 77566 and the utg announced "Two pair!" I would definitely say that could be viewed as a misleading(perhaps an angle) declaration. After all, everyone would have at least two pair in this situation and of course the pocket 44's would be toast unless the bb couldn't beat 4 high(then they would chop it).

However, in the actual hand that OP is complaining about( and feels wronged by) is nowhere near a situation that's even remotely close to a double paired board.

Aside from flipping your hand up, how would you have announced a pocket pair in this spot?

This whole thing is mind boggling.

Why not say "jack high flush?" Why not announce the final value of your straight? Why not announce your pocket pair?

People don't agree on the definition of angling, so I'm not getting bogged down with discussing this in those terms. As I said, it's truthful but not transparent. Why not be transparent? Why not just table your cards?

Yes, just table your cards. Agreed. But neither one of them did that!

Oh, well then someone had to be angle shooting here, I think I'll pick the guy who merely announced "two pair" opposed to the guy who chose to sit there with his thumb up his ass.

Look, this has nothing to do with two wrongs don't make a right(so before you go there) this has to do with someone accusing another player of being an angleshooter, something in which I take very seriously. And I don't think he did that. You think he should've tabled, I agree with you on that. But, do you think he was angle shooting?...cause that is the question at hand.

If you're asking me personally, I would turn over my hand and say "fours".

Of course, if the board is double paired with 7s and 6s like in your other example, someone might think I was angle shooting. Personally I don't think I have ever announced my hand as "two pair" even when neither of the two pair were on the board. I generally would say something like "kings up".

Like I said, I just thought the announcement of "two pair" was a mostly habit of old stud players. More recently I have heard it some from younger guys who probably never played much stud in casinos though, and I have wondered if it was an attempt to induce the muck of a better hand.

The only players who declare their hand as "two pair" in these situations are clueless beginners and experienced players who are looking for every dirty little edge.

I wouldn't argue with anyone who called it angling. These guys know what they're doing, and it's a bit sleazy.

How does that work, exactly? Everyone counts "1, 2, 3" and tables their hands at the same time?

Of course, then one guy would be late to show, get accused of angling, and protest that he thought it was supposed to be "1, 2, 3, Go".

Really, showing in turn is just not that difficult a concept.

True, but everyone showing at showdown is an even less difficult concept. It's showdown, turn your hand over, don't worry about the order. Maybe you were quicker than the other guy, maybe not. Who cares?