Yeah, as we all know, the definition of angle is not universal. So getting worked up over that terminology sidesteps the true question here.

It's truthful but not transparent. Leave the word "angle" out of it. Yes, I know other people are using it. Rise above.

Or just table your cards and stop pretending like this is some wacky slippery slope to absurdity. I give everybody here more credit than that.

Are you involved in showdown and nothing's happening? Then it's time to table your cards, regardless of position. End of story.

Once you've gotten to showdown, you're going to have to show your cards to take the pot down. One guaranteed way to not win the pot is to never table those cards!

You can dance around it all you want, discussing the order of showdown, etc., but I prefer to get more hands in, and I'm honestly not giving credence to this alleged 'angle shooter' for anything but trying to accomplish that.

Is that a serious allegation? Yes. Does it apply here? No.

no way man if i show my cards everyone will look into my soul and steal my poker secrets and probably my atm passwords too

i reach over into the muck and jam my cards in there and then everyone totally respects my game because they're like daaaaamn that guy is so good that he's actively hiding his cards i'd better stay away from that badass mother****er

We've had this discussion a million times here. I still contend that there is absolutely nothing wrong with accurately declaring your hand at showdown. I don't consider it an angle in any way.

That being said, just turn over your cards. The best possible way to protect yourself at showdown is to wait for action to be complete, then turn up your cards and hold them until the dealer pushes you the pot.

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Absolutely it is an angle trying to get a better hand to muck. I hate this kind of player. Just play the freakin' game and best hand wins.

Yeah, but that's because you're a peace-loving hippie born 40 years too late.

why on earth would it be an angle? When the hand is tabled, the dealer will also announce two pair. That is what he has.

What hand do you think he's representing when he says "two pair" here?

An overpair? 8-7? Do you expect him to say he has a tiny little pocket pair?

He has two pair. He's not first to act.
He's letting BB know that if he has two pair or better he should show his hand.
If BB says two pair is good, UTG shows his fours and BB can fold without showing.

It's not an angle, it's a courtesy.
He tried to move showdown along even though he could have just sat there silently and waited for BB to act.

^^If he wants to speed up the showdown, fours uses half as many syllables as two pair.

Maybe I am just missing something here, but don't both players have two pair? If you hae two pair and are dumb enough to fold just because somebody else announces they have two pair, you probably shouldn't be playing poker. The appropriate thing for the second player to do is to say, "I have two pair, also. Sevens and threes." And then flip his card over and wait for the other guy to show. There may be somewhat of an angle to this, but the guy with 44 may also think the other guy was betting two over cards that never hit.

Opinions seem pretty split on this. For those that think it is acceptable...

Would your opinion change if you had seen him go to showdown 8-10 times in position and never announce his hand out of turn?

Help me out here.
What better hand is he trying to fool into folding here?
What hand do you think he's representing here?

Is he,
Hoping J-7 doesn't realize he has two pair?
Hoping pocket tens doesn't realize he has two pair?

I enjoy transparency too, but it's a separate issue from declaring your hand, and you are kind of muddling the two (understandably, since both themes are explored in the OP).

These two views are totally compatible and not mutually exlusive:

1. Just table your cards.
   
2. It is never wrong to correctly declare your hand.

It really depends on the player.

I've seen people announce "two pair" in this situation and I believed it was a totally innocent and sincere declaration of the strength of his hand, and I've seen it where I was 100% certain he was trying to get someone to muck an overpair or something similar.

I feel like we need an "Is X an angleshot?" containment thread.

"Pocket 4's"

Only if you have a boat or quads...

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I would say "J high Flush" or "J high Straight" in those situations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ss6uCG_8#t=109

Plenty of players, especially novice players, announce two pair in this situation without any ill intent. I don't for all the reasons everyone here mentioned. But to assume this is an angle is ridiculous when it is damn near standard for novice players to do it.

For people who think this is an angle, do you also think it is an angle to shove all in on the river against an inexperienced player when there is an ace high straight on the board with no flush possible? In both cases you are trying to get the inexperienced player to misread the board and muck their hand without lying or doing anything against the rules. I've done both successfully and don't see a problem with either. Part of the game of poker is reading your hand and the board correctly, and if you can't do that, you are fair game to players that can.

Now if you misstate your hand to get your opponent to muck (i.e. saying you have trips when you don't) that is an angle and certainly scummy.

The guy actually has 2 pairs. If that makes you fold, you're a dope and should lose.

I think you're in the minority. Especially in cases where both hole cards are used, a "flush" is usually good — I wouldn't think to declare the rank, nor should I be expected to.

If that level of detail turns out to be necessary, it will be revealed. Don't worry.

But if there's an ace on the board and your highest flush card is a jack, when you clarify, do you say "ace high" or "jack high"?

I fully agree there is accuracy to saying "two pair". I just feel it obfuscates the situation. I'm not sure why people can't understand this point.

But I'm weird, because I want the kind of person who would muck his better hand without recognizing the paired board to be HAPPY with his experience, enjoy playing with me at the table, and want to return.

It's the difference between street grifting and the long con.

Yes, but there should be a distinction between:
- is this angling?
- is this dirty?
- is this mild obfuscation?
- is this short-sighted because you're pushing away someone who will pay you off later? (and how is this different between a MTT and cash?)
- is this just fine?
- is this OP's personal pet peeve shared by some others?

Otherwise there should just be an every-post containment thread that is closed, with the answer "do anything possible to appease the bad players," because this is the go-to answer for every question ever in any thread.