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STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2

07-14-2012 , 09:53 PM
CQ, I like your observations and I like a jam, or a flat then jam most flops since he'll be auto-cbetting the flop. But that's just my leaky play vs people I assume are solid pre-flop and are capable. The smart thing to do is probably just let this one go to see more hands with villain before making assumptions about his range.
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07-18-2012 , 02:58 PM
I ended up folding the AQss for bad reasons (was in the middle of a downswing, didn't want to be wrong and drop more money on a bad shove). Felt like shoving > folding > flatting because I'm a nit who doesn't like to be put in bad spots vs good players post flop. Villain showed K3o after I mucked
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07-18-2012 , 03:13 PM
5/10 30 bb game. I'm new to the table. The hand prior to this (maybe my third dealt in hand) I get dealt KK and the guy on my right open jams $270. I snap call and hold against QQ. I now have $570 in front.

Villain in this hand has about $1k behind. She's a ~35ish asian lady. She's semi competent, semi loose and quite aggro. Goes on huge swings because of this. Prob is a little too aggro, but is likely a small winner in the game because she consistently builds up a stack, pockets the difference from her initial buy in and then transfers tables. She plays this game more than I do, is def a reg in these games and might be a full time player/pro. We've played about 30-40 hours together but rarely get mixed up in pots verse each other. We mostly stay out of each others way it would seem though I don't know if this is a conscious effort on her part. She respects my game to a degree, she's complemented me on my play in several hands, complemented me on my patience in this game, and readily admits its something she generally lacks.

This hand I'm utg+2 with QQ. First two guys limp (inc the guy I just stacked), and I make it $50. In retrospect I can make it larger here, the guy on my right prob calls ~$70, more if I get another caller. Villain (BTN asian lady) flat calls. She's seen me iso raise plenty of times but I'm not excessive with it, I still have a pretty predictable range in these spots (25% or so from all positions, obv tighter the closer I get to UTG). After she flats both blinds fold and then both limpets flat call.

Flop ($215): T 6 2

Both limp/callers check quickly. I cbet for $125. Villain (btn) tanks for about 90 seconds before flatting. She should suspect I'm not Cbetting too lightly being 4 ways, but I still have AK/AQ/PPs < TT that I could give up with verse resistance. After she calls both limpers fold. The initial plan on the turn was to jam almost any card, I probably slow down on A, T type turn cards. Her flatting range is prob something like sets, Tx, 6x, AK, she might have hands like 98/87/54ss too and she's capable of bluffing if she bricks those draws.

Turn ($465): K

This card makes me reconsider my jam plan. I elect to check (and call if she jams) because I think it's a good card for her to try to rep and make a play with after it looks like I'm shutting down. I'm not sure if she'll try to steal it here if she has a straight draw or if she'd take the free card, but I think she's more likely than not going to jam when I check. On the other side if I jam the turn she's going to fold all worse hands (straight draws, 6x, and vs me probably folds Tx as well) and call with better (AK, KT, sets).

I check. Villain tanks for like 3 minutes and finally announces all-in ($395 effectively). I snap call.

Thoughts?

Last edited by crackedquads; 07-18-2012 at 03:20 PM.
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07-18-2012 , 04:54 PM
So hard with out really knowing the villain.

Typically, against a decent thinking player, shoving should be better than c/c because K is a good card for you to rep, and they should check back a tonne of their calling range. So their betting range is usually stronger than their calling range.

That said, she might not be on this level. She might not realize you don't cbet this flop that often, and when you do cbet air, you are probably barreling always. She might see a check on a good bluff card as weak, when it can actually be strong and just rando spazz with some float because that flop didn't hit your range.

All that said, I think the c/c plan is probably ok. The long thinking on the flop, followed by the tank shove is a little scary. What was she tanking about on the flop? typically a real hand, and not some float. And if it was a tough decision, why jam the turn when checked to? But, she's repping a set, AK or KT. KT is hard to make. Sets are hard to make. She doesn't always play AK like this pre or on the flop.
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07-18-2012 , 05:03 PM
Here's a hand I probably butchered. I think I know what most people will say, as it's a spot I often don't follow what most people say for some reason.

History.

UTG is a terrible lag that's a really nice guy and we are kinda buddies in the game. He will put a tonne of money in pre with just about anything, and is super aggro post flop. He has closed to 100% river bet frequency if the initiative isn't taken away/continue on the turn.

BTN is bad too. Calls way too much preflop, and over values any pair. I'm not really sure about how aggro he is when checked to though, nor have much in the way of bet sizing tells.

Hero is stuck and people know it. It's late ~2am, and I've mentioned a couple times how I should leave and work will suck in the morning. I typically have an aggro image, and people know I have a lighter raising range than most from anywhere. My game should be respected though. I have been incredibly card dead for the last few orbits though, so I've been a nit lately.

Stacks:
Hero ~$400
UTG covers
BTN ~$265

Hero is dealt AK UTG+1

UTG limps, Hero raises to $15, folds, BTN calls, folds, UTG calls.

Flop ($48): AJT
UTG checks, Hero ????
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07-18-2012 , 05:27 PM
CQ, I want to call but the tanking there is absurd. Usually when I think something is absurd it's the nuts. Unless she has a history of tanking then I reluctantly fold it. I'd definitely snapped it though if she didn't tank.

Devin, I'd start by checking. With your image you aren't getting 3 streets from worse so I'd pot control and just bet any turn when checked to. If flop was AJ9 all spades then I'd prefer a bet.
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07-18-2012 , 06:15 PM
CQ hand, is she ever jamming a set/KTs there or is there little-to-no small sizing in her game? I like Turn check if she'll often jam those weaker (Tx/77-99/JJ ?)that she may fold to your double-barrel if she indeed is aggressive but respects your strength representations.

If she's loose enough to call ~JTo preflop, etc., like it even more.
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07-18-2012 , 08:19 PM
I'd check too Devin. AJ/AT/JJ/TT/JT are all in both of their ranges, there are very few bad turn cards, and it sucks to get raised off such a strong draw, and what the other DD said.
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07-18-2012 , 08:41 PM
Flop ($48): AJT
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN snap bets $50, UTG folds, Hero ????
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07-18-2012 , 08:43 PM
Call? Folding can't be an option, and raising doesn't seem to accomplish much.
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07-19-2012 , 01:51 AM
Devin: I agree with DD (Ditch digger) that we aren't getting 3 streets of value but I think that has more to do so with our hand and the board than our image. There's basically nothing that can pay us off for three streets if A) We have the best hand now or B) We improve to the best hand. I think I'd elect to check/call down but we probably loose action from villain once our hand gets better. There's just so few good cards for us that villain won't shut down on unless he's a spewtard.

Re: DD (doublez down) - If we cbet and get raised I'm probably just jamming the flop, literally never folding. We might not be good vs a flop raise but if we rejam we A) have equity against all of villains range and B) might be able to fold our hands we're actually behind of on the flop like AJ/AT/TT. It's a super scary board for any hand that's actually ahead of us.

edit - lol just realized both people I'm addressing are DD 1 and DD 2
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07-19-2012 , 02:34 AM
Isn't a 3-minute tank-shove extremely strong, trying to rep a difficult decision.
I'd fold.
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07-19-2012 , 02:37 AM
Devin, next time for entertainment purposes turnover the Kc and then shove flop. :-)
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07-19-2012 , 02:08 PM
Flop ($48): AJT
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN snap bets $50, UTG folds, Hero ????

So my plan was to c/c, but the insta pot bet confused me. I thought he would just barrel the turn big a lot, and I made me uncomfortable with the c/c down line, so I:

Hero tank raises to $125 (meant to make it $150, but was short one 5-stack of reds...tired I guess. As I was raising after tanking I though it should be obvious I wasn't that strong), BTN tanks for a long time then says all in. I call the $100 more.

Turn and River blank out. I say "You're good, I missed." He turns over 99x. I say "oh, no you're not." and show my hand. Then apologize for saying you are good, but assumed he wouldn't jam worse.

Results are obviously awesome. But I don't think I like my flop c/r, and it certainly wasn't the plan.
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07-19-2012 , 02:51 PM
why not go at least $20 pre devin? $15 seems to small.

its 2/5 right?
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07-19-2012 , 02:52 PM
Well yeah I gotta admit my first thought was zomg I have top pair and the NFD, raise get it in asap. It's much easier to see the merits of c/c when we aren't in the hand...and lol and villain's all-in.
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07-19-2012 , 03:01 PM
no...1/2nl. $20 is still a reasonable suggestion given UTG though. But, I don't think it's necessary, easy enough to build a big pot anyway.
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07-19-2012 , 03:05 PM
Definitely table/location dependent. If I tried $15 at the dogtrack here, I'd have gotten 6 callers.
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07-19-2012 , 03:06 PM
Here's one for fun. Obviously spewy...

I don't really remember exact positions but:

EP: young skinny guy that looks like a skid. Bought in for like $100 or $150.
Other two relevant players are just normal guys. Not too loose, not too tight. Not good, or creative.

Stacks:
EP: $100-120
Hero: Covers.
Others: deeper than EP.

Hero is dealt 33 in MP.

Folds, EP raises to $10, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls, folds.

Flop ($42): T42
EP bets $10, Hero raises to $30, fold, fold, EP calls.

Turn ($102): 9
EP bets $20, Hero calls.

River: ($142): J
check, check.

Flame away!
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07-19-2012 , 03:14 PM
LOL

I mainly just don't like the amount of the flop raise. I'd like it better if we either: fold, raise to ~$60 as a bluff, or just call down because he obviously doesn't have it.

Turn and river...sure, hard to fold turn with the odds, and he's never folding river.
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07-19-2012 , 03:27 PM
Devin, given your previous hands, I would never bluff in this game
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07-19-2012 , 04:14 PM
I was bluffing?
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07-19-2012 , 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
CQ hand, is she ever jamming a set/KTs there or is there little-to-no small sizing in her game? I like Turn check if she'll often jam those weaker (Tx/77-99/JJ ?)that she may fold to your double-barrel if she indeed is aggressive but respects your strength representations.

If she's loose enough to call ~JTo preflop, etc., like it even more.
This would be a great question to know the answer to, but I'm not sure. My line now doesn't look exactly that strong, so I'd suspect with the best of her range she'd try to value town me a bit with a smaller bet so I can call with worse holdings.

She's def loose enough to call hands like JT/T9/98/87/76/65ss pre, especially the deeper she gets, but I don't know if she'd flat all of those hands against me specifically. She does have me covered and is on the BTN, so maybe she's looser than normal.

I'll also note that villain is semi notorious for her tanking. The first or second time I played at a table with her she got into a spot vs a random where she tanked (don't remember if she shoved or checked or called a bet or w/e) but two of the guys on my side of the table remarked to me as soon as she started to tank that "this is going to take a while." She does have a tendency to tank but I've never seen her tank this long and I've never seen her tank a decision against me specifically that I can recall.
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07-19-2012 , 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinLake
Here's one for fun. Obviously spewy...

I don't really remember exact positions but:

EP: young skinny guy that looks like a skid. Bought in for like $100 or $150.
Other two relevant players are just normal guys. Not too loose, not too tight. Not good, or creative.

Stacks:
EP: $100-120
Hero: Covers.
Others: deeper than EP.

Hero is dealt 33 in MP.

Folds, EP raises to $10, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls, folds.

Flop ($42): T42
EP bets $10, Hero raises to $30, fold, fold, EP calls.

Turn ($102): 9
EP bets $20, Hero calls.

River: ($142): J
check, check.

Flame away!
I like the raise vs his ******o lead bet, but I'd make it $40-50 so it's hard for him to continue with anything that isn't TP+. As played I certainly call the turn lead with those odds because I think we're still good vs his straight draws and overcards, and I'm checking back the river as well.

The 9 shouldn't have improved his hand that often so I'm wondering if applying more pressure on the turn would be a good idea.
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07-19-2012 , 04:41 PM
Live 5/10 30 bb game. Hero has about $700 in front. I came from a different table that got reg infested by players on the wait list for the game in the pit. This table was short handed and they let me buy in for what I came over with instead of limiting me to the normal max buy in for the table ($300).

Table fills up after about an hour. Villain is two to my right, he's your average reg in these games, way too loose, usually doesn't buy in for full, has several leaks. He has about $500 in front.

I'm BTN and it goes 5 limpers to me where I hold T 4

I'm folding this pre in this game 99% of the time when I'm not in the blinds because when I do hit it's hard to make enough money off the hands to make up for the investment because everyone is so short stacked relative to the blinds. I flat call here with all the limpers in front of me and two super passive guys in the blinds. SB completes and BB checks.

Flop ($80): K Q 5

Checks around to villain in the hijack who leads for $10. The bet screams weakness and I'm inclined to raise here, but with 5-6 players acting behind me I flat call, along with 3 other guys.

Turn ($130): K Q 5 Q

Checks to villain who now leads for $50. He still has $430 behind. I call again because I think his range is heavily weighted towards Qx hands and if I hit my flush I doubt villain is capable of folding. After I flat, everyone else folds.

River ($230): K Q 5 Q K

Villain checks pretty quickly. I think for about 10 seconds and bet $150.

TBH my line isn't very consistent with Kx because I'm raising the top of my kings pre flop and I'm raising the rest of the kings in my range on the flop facing that awful $10 donk bet. I'm raising the turn with Qx some portion of the time and I'm probably checking back Qx on the river so Qx doesn't make much sense either.

The bet boils down to whether a villain who limps pre and donks $10 into an $80 pot is capable of considering what I could have here, or does he just autopilot check/call Qx or autopilot check/fold Qx/everything else.

Thoughts?
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