x peru KQ hand

I just start building a big pot, often they fold, but w/e

so I would have opened on the flop

after his raise I guess I switch to c/c mode...

by the looks of it the only thing you fear is AK, TT, or 22, however I could see villain doing that w/ most PP's, or Ax

...did not look at spoiler yet...

KQ hand ur goal should be to get it in.

It depends on the villain how best to play it. As a stardard I'd probably c/c this flop and donk a lot of turns.

As played, he has a lot more fds and worse Ks than hands that beat you. So, you should be getting it in on the turns as you did here.

Just read a bit in here,
I wonder why no one advocated to 3b/c the flop here, sure he's aggro and might bet the turn alot, but there's just sososo many bad turncards.
I really wanna get it in here right now.
Probly you can induce him to lolshove crap+h by clicking it back or sth but I don't really like just calling.

didnt see the hand originally but not 3betting this flop is a just lighting money on fire, and checking the turn on that board is just as bad. So many bad turns can kill your action and if he paired the A he will try to showdown cheaply unless he he hits his flush, and if he didnt pair the A it will slow down all his overpairs +hearts from the flop. Virtually the only hands he's betting on the turn are either ahead of you, are AhX hands that have two pair, AhKx, or pure bluffs. AF is meaningless over 27 hands, and sooo many hands that want a free card will pay to see the river if you bet.

I didn't see the 22 hand either, it must have been in hiding somewhere... but yeah def 3bet the flop, get in. Not sets in general (not that that's ever necessarily horrible or anything; just saying sometimes it's fine to play them trappy), but like FD said, there are a ton of overpair / high heart type hands that will happily get in with you on the flop + the turn either kills your action or makes you not want to get in yourself so often... So the flop is def the place to try to get all the money in here.

I agree that b/3b is standard there, especially against an unknown but if I'm up against a regular sometimes I would take hero's line.

I think that's an even worse time to do it since the kind of reg you'd take this line against is a) more likely to float w/ a heart and b) more likely to understand that he should take the free river card.

Yeah I wouldn't do it if I thought he was good enough to take the free card on the turn. Most of the regs at 100nl just bet bet bet when you check to them.

My butchering of this hand seems to have created a good discussion. I should add that I am not a reg in these games at Stars and because of that, and the fact that they dont allow data mining, I dont know if this guy is a reg or not. At the time I just knew he had a high aggr # in an insignificant sample.

villain is 27/21/4.4 over 245 hands. i don't remember any specific history between us, but he has been pwning me iirc. did i play any street correctly?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $21.00
Hero (SB): $101.05
BB: $144.60
UTG: $112.35
MP: $116.10
CO: $103.05

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with 4 4
4 folds, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $3

Flop: ($8.00) T 6 Q (2 players)
Hero bets $5, BB calls $5

Turn: ($18.00) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $12.50, BB calls $12.50

River: ($43.00) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15, Hero folds

c/f the turn. It's a bad card to double barrel cause it doesn't change anything. If he bluffs you off, he's doing it with a hand that has a lot of equity against ur 44 anyway.

villain is a 18/12/1.9 weak regular.

don't have much else of a read on him.

Party Poker $400 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN): $424.50
SB: $181.00
BB: $400.00
UTG: $1165.60
CO: $548.20

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with Q A
2 folds, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $10, BB calls $8

Flop: ($36.00) J T Q (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($36.00) 8 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $20, Hero calls $20, SB folds

River: ($76.00) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero?

His hand looks a lot like a 9 and I'm not sure how often he shows up with a worse two pair to pay off a river bet (T8/J8?). I think checking behind is best but I always to bet here because **** them I have top two. Although if you think villain is capable and you can induce a bluff c/r with a small bet then that's something to consider as well. Are people that aggro at 400nl?

I can't call a river c/r by this particular villain.

why didn't you cbet the flop? i know it hit a lot of their range, but isn't that why we bet for protection?
there are worse hands he can call with AJ,AT,JT,QJ. but none better that he'd fold (unless he has a 9 and puts you on a king). i don't think it's likely he's c/r here since you haven't shown any postflop aggression, so he's most likely hoping for a cheap showdown. if he had a str8 or a set, wouldn't he vbet the river? i would think worse 2pr is likely so bet 2/3 pot for value.

I didn't bet the flop because it's such a terrible flop. I don't really like getting called that much, and I have to fold to a raise. And there really isn't that many bad cards for me on the turn or river so I don't really need to protect my hand.

Check the river. Even a weak regular would presumably squeeze rather than call with AJ and AT so I don't expect to see those too often. Two pairs that aren't aces up should be folding this river.

dave: Flop check is because you can never get three streets of value with only one pair queens, so you will have to check a street at some point. The flop is a good choice for a few complicated reasons.

Also, if he has a 9 or set, him value betting would be a bad idea because the board is so ugly that there's very little value in a bet. Would you call AQ if he bet? I wouldn't, what do you beat? So 9s and sets are better used as bluffcatchers.

Chris...do you really think c/c on this board is a good line? The only thing I could have is like Axdd, that bluffs that river.

Even that's better than "nothing", which I think is the range that calls that you beat if you vbet a set or 9. I also think the best way to get value from stuff like AQ is to check, which I think this thread demonstrates. I doubt you'd consider calling with AQ if he bets, but you're considering valuetowning yourself when he checks.

OK, I'll have a go at explaining what this means to me, because I think Chris has made a very significant point.

Grinding online poker is a game of reciprocity. By this I mean that statistically we will in the long run experience every possible situation from both sides, eg holding AK with A75 board against someone holding 55, and holding 55 against someone holding AK. Our profits come from the difference between what we win and lose in each situation -lose less w AK or make a bit more with the set, and we're up.

When we have a made hand we want to make the most when we are ahead, and lose the least when we are behind. What matters mathematically,is what % of the time we're ahead, and what % of the time we're behind. With 1 pair, we are behind more often than when we have a set, so we need to control the pot size.

Checking the flop does several things: it reduces the streets available to a better hand to bet for value, saving us x% of our stack v a better hand; it makes us look weak, giving villain an opportunity to bet a worse pair, or bluff at us; it gives villain a free card, reducing the absolute value of our hand. Betting flop and checking turn often leads to villain betting out turn or river because we look weak, and then we have a difficult decision. Balancing these things indicates when to bet or check flop based on flop texture. I still haven't decided whether its better to bet and double barrell on drawy boards to induce mispriced calls, or to check and bet turn if it's a brick. Early pot inflation is expensive because of it's effect on later street bet sizes, but giving free cards on drawy boards means losing more small pots.

Position, therefore is the killer here; in position you have much more opportunity to control the pot, and therefore make fewer mistakes when you have second best hands and extract extra bets when you have the best hand.

Now, what have I missed?

Yea, I guess ur right. I was going to fold the AQ if he bet. The thing is, I came so so so close to not betting AQ.

I guess it's really a math question. I'd have to guess though, that given I don't value bet worse than AQ and I don't do that anywhere near 100% of the time, I don't have or bluff with Axdd very often, and so many decent Ks make sense for me, that when he c/cs he's not winning the 25 or 30% of the time he needs.

Basically ur saying c/c is better than betting with a 9. But, I don't know if it's better than c/f. It is a ****ty spot for him, that's for sure.

Peru, I lost a lot tonight (had a 8.5 buyin swing in my evening session alone) basically from value betting drawy boards and it going bad or bad bad and having to fold every single time. But, I still feel that getting that value is more profitable in the long run then letting them draw for free and missing a street of value.

Since this is the STT forum, doesn't a Cash -> STT thread make more sense? Why have SNG players help other players transition to cash? Seems like this would be more appropriate for SSNL or something imo.

Because that's not the point to the thread. This thread was created because it's hard for unknowns to get replies to threads sometimes. So, when STTF members were switching to cash, they were frustrated with the responses they were getting in forums like SSNL. So, this thread was created.

There are many former sng players that beat MSNL, and HSNL now.

People are getting much better good advice:nonsense ratio in this thread than in SSNL, and people playing lower stakes are getting advice from higher stakes winners that would never see these hands in SSNL.