His tendency to start quoting his own posts really shot his post count up and reduced the signal level of his posts.

How is the concept of taxation like the concept of a mountain?

I I'm not free, never said or implied I was. I can't go around killing people free of consequence. I'd argue that level of freedom no sane human being wants; people desire structure, limits, etc. It's normal and healthy.

But you keep putting words in my mouth, it's one of only a few terrible tactics you've got left at this point.

I also never said the country owns me. That is silly, nonsensical, hyperbolic blather; put it on the list of options Proph has left at his disposal.

___

Hey Proph, how's that search going to support your assertion that police brutality is such a huge social problem? Yikes.

Out of sheer curiousity, Proph, can you give us your own special snowflake definition of "theft" which allows taxation to fit within its umbra? I'm assuming it's something along the lines of, "Taking anything I claim as mine without my permission." Shame that your special snowflake understanding of the world is so warped. Must make the world a scary and confusing place for you.

Yeah, you know this, and I know this, but Liberty Lost musta skipped reading the thread title...

Yep, and some very influential leaders of Libertarian-type-ism (R.Noziak, W.Block, M.Rothbard, etc) have made this same exact argument, based upon the Libertarian-type 'axiom' they call 'voluntarism'.

LMFAO dude... any discussion of slavery is never gonna be a gotcha against the 'statists'"... it's always going to be huge, often fatal, and usually self-inflicted gotcha on the Libertarian-types themselves.

Rule#2 for Libertarian-types should really be "ZOMG avoid bringing up slavery under any circumstances". LMFAO dude...

Re: LOL @ all things libertarian-type !!!1!

Yep. And that's exactly why so many influential leaders Libertarian-type-ism, and so many of there sheeple, argue that using the Libertarian-type 'axiom' of 'contracts', that what they call 'voluntary' slavery is A-OK and should be legal.

Here... for extra credit LOLs ITT... why don't you argue against the 'Libertarian-type argument for Slavery' (linkee). Or... are you really a true-blue Libertarian-type and actually are for slavery too ??

No U.

Re: LOL @ all things libertarian-type !!!1!

I don't put them on the same level but, it isn't necessary to do so for my point to stand. Sorry but, the "its legal" argument is just terrible no matter how you slice it.

Yes I'm a Libertarian but, I dont see how libertarianism leads to slavery. I'm sure you will enlighten me with some alternative definition of slavery though.

Where does the discrimination allowed by Prophs libertarian system end? Seems like a shorter jump from allowing discrimination against a group to allowing subjugation of that group than from slavery to taxation. What is your moral issue with paying your fair share for the benefits you receive from taxation?

There is nothing to argue. I have no problem with voluntary contracts.

a. I have no doubt there will be places that will discrimnate but, seems like a large leap to go from a restaurant not allowing a person to eat at their place to having them chained up in their backyard doing the gardening. I would go with the more obvious choice of that place having a hard time staying open before leaping to slavery.

b. Income taxes are my main gripe, sales taxes to a lesser extent and usage taxes I have no problem with for the most part.

c. Your definition of fair share and what the government should be providing are light years apart from what I believe.

Your warped sense of "freedom" is very dangerous.

Sweet use of a zero content redirect in the desperate hope that you wouldn't have to address the issues.

Let's try again. How about you 1) define "theft" for us, and then 2) wash it down with any...annnnny...data to support your notion that police brutality is this massive scale social problem.

You think allowing a class of people to be treated as 2nd class citizens is where the discrimination is going to stop? If their property isn't good enough to pay for goods and services maybe they shouldn't have any. What is the point of having a right to property if you can't use that property for business transactions? The solution Proph has come up with is allowing business owners to discriminate against currently protected classes.

What do you think the difference between a sales tax and an income tax is? The main difference is that sales taxes fall harder on the poor than on the rich.

What the government should be providing or shouldn't be providing is only tangentially related to taxes. Unless you abolish the government they are going to do stuff that is going to need to be funded. "Voluntary Contributions" will only go so far and I'm not seeing much difference between income tax and usage fees.

Liberty Lost do you think taxes are theft?

If so, you do you think libertarians, as well as other people, who do not think tax is theft are thieves?

If not, are you concerned proph or someone else will 'no true libertarian', or otherwise fallaciously attack you, if you openly advocate taxation is legitimate and is not theft?

In context, I'm going to assume you are including 'Voluntary' Slavery contracts here. So... you have no problem with 'voluntary' slavery, your flavor of Libertarian-type-ism has no problem with 'voluntary'. Previously you said...

Which I mistakenly took as an attempted gotcha -vs- the 'statists' . I now see it was actually an endorsement of this peculiar Libertarian-type-ism institution of 'voluntary' slavery. My bad . I just assume people are anti-slavery... I temporarily forgot we were chatting about Libertarian-type-ism where that ain't necessarily the case

Here, Livra once explained how Libertarian-type-ism always leads to slavery, just this way...

Well going back to whatever proph says reflects back on proph.

DIB seems to have a clear grasp on the basic human notion that the limits we put on ourselves (also known as responsibility) and freedom are related.

proff on the otherhand, and as has been shown, warps words and makes accusations in nearly everything he quotes.

Here he is accusing Dib of having dangerous notions for notation.

Except where it's made legal to do so, like with taxes.

Circular logic. Just because a thing is made legal doesn't make it not theft. If they made mugging legal, it would still be theft.

There are other legal things that are theft as well. Like forcing someone to sell their land to Wal-Mart at half its worth.

Exactly.

No, taxes are taking someone's money, often against their will, to use in a manor differently than how they would have used it. Just because some of that money is used for things that help that person doesn't make it not theft. If a teen steals $1000 from their dad's wallet and uses $200 of that on a Father's Day gift, that doesn't magically make it not theft.

You may or may not be proph, but I don't believe this at all.

Believe it.

Remember he's on record for both hating fun, and hating gimmicks. If he started telling lies about gimmicks... well then he would be an active participant in the fun of gimmicks. *head-xpload*

And? You disagree?

spanktehbadwookie defends Dibs' beliefs that "freedom is murder".

ITT, moderators defend dangerous beliefs!

You simply use a different definition. I didn't know that you weren't free unless you were killing people.

(Pretty friggin' warped if you ask me.)

No, taxes are the cost of being a member of our Society. No more bad analogies allowed in the taxes = theft discussions. Why should you get the benefits that taxes provide without paying for them?

I believe income taxes to be theft. Sales taxes I'm really not a fan of but, there is some semblence of choice there. Usage taxes are the way to go for the level of government I believe in but, obviously has severe limitations for the welfare state.

Do I think people that believe in the income taxes are thieves? I guess I would have to say no. I just look at it as every other bad policy the government has forced us to adhere to. Its just a product of the times.

As to the last question. I could care less considering I'm not a purist.

It's true, I do hate fun and gimmicks. I hate fun so much some kids called me Hitler because I wouldn't let them gambol on the way back to the cabin after dinner. True story.

How about less histrionics and more definitions. What is your definition of free in regards to your 3 rights?

Read the article you linked to it is quite clear but, I dont expect you to really make the effort to make the distinction between pre civil war slavery and a voluntary contract.

Well the problem is that we have protected classes. No such thing should exist imo.

The difference between a sales tax and a income tax is huge actually. See I go to work for 40 hours a week and make $800(made up numbers) but only bring home $500. The government has decided that it can just take that $300 of my hard earned labor because it says so. Its a baby step up from the Mafia demanding protection money. A sales tax on the other hand, while ****ty, at least I can decide if I want to spend that money or not. A small victory but, choice none the less.

I may be using the wrong term with usage tax, not sure. Anyways a usage tax to me is like paying a toll on highway or bridge we are paying for or gas taxes etc etc. That is quite a bit different then income taxes.