Most recreational players have been happy to straddle and usually we don’t have a problem with a true rec player not straddling because game will be good anyways. It’s the 2-5 pros that have been killing the straddle or new 5-10 daytime regs that are terrible for the game that kill the straddle. If it was someone that was great action that kills it whatever but I’m most cases it’s ALWAYS someone bad for the game. The straddle is basically mgmNH culture and has been around almost everyday since the room opened. I don’t think it will kill the player pool.

I’m not advocating a change in buyin structure…I actually think uncapped games are bad and unsustainable which is why 10-25 has trouble.
I just think it’s just dreadful when the game has been 3 blinds for 8 hours and someone bad for the game turns it off on people who could potentially be stuck.
Just asking for something like Vegas where…

-If the entire table wants a straddle 3 blind game 1 individual can not turn it off unless the table itself is ok with it because the player is more than welcome to the game. Very simple and respectful to the players that have been playing.-

I was just thinking an official 3 blind game would help that but maybe even just a rule a majority rules and one individual can’t ruin it for everyone would be nice.

Also if everyone has been playing with a straddle forever and it gets turned offÂ….most of that table becomes more bored and are more likely to leave.
IÂ’ve seen full games almost break before but the Pros trying to end the straddle realized there would be no game anyways because a chain reaction of frustrated players picking up. They either elected to not play or join in on straddles.
That only happens at the end of the nightÂ…but sometimes it happens during prime time and itÂ’s just bad etiquette especially if itÂ’s a pro or someone that takes it seriously.

If it was a rec player that killed the straddle once in a blue moon it wouldnÂ’t even be a concern.
ItÂ’s the regs that are starting to play more or the 2-5 players trying to move up that are killing the straddle. Those are the people that will wreck the poker economy later in the long run.
Nobody is complaining about players that are welcome to the gameÂ…itÂ’s the ones that people donÂ’t care to play with that are ruining the game that weÂ’ve been enjoying for years. If players like this never joined think about how healthy the player pool would be.

Also dumbo you play plenty and never kill the straddle. You get it and know this is the norm.

MDL allowed 5/10/25 for a short period of time prior to MGM opening. Was a huge cluster**** and they did away with it after a couple weeks iirc. I think they actually allow it again but there’s no player pool anymore and there’s never more than 1 game so none of the issues from before exist.

Look how much trouble the staff has now just filling seats and moving players for 5/10. If they had an extra list to manage, and the players wanting to change the game all the time it’d be a catastrophe.

I despise being forced to straddle because I cant stand that attitude.

And you know what - I'm the kind of player you want in the game. I'm a max buyin losing player overall that plays for fun and not the money. I play because I enjoy hanging out with the guys in the room. Some nights its for an hour or two - some nights its an all nighter. But my money is more likely than not to be elsewhere at the end of the night. The idea that not straddling destroys the game is simply absurd.

But if there's one thing I cant stand about the "mgmNH culture" as you put it - its this kind of attitude. That a handful of regs know what is best for the room. I absolutely despise that attitude. I've been playing at the room since opening weekend too - so take that bleep down the road if you think you know better than anyone else whats good or bad for the room.

I dont give a rip what "ruins" *your game* or not - I put my $1k on the table, I'm going to play how I want to play. Forcing people to straddle because its what you want? Again, take that down the road.

I’m not the only individual…obviously it’s a majority thing. Funny I’m getting resistance on this thread from a bunch of plo players where the 5-5-5 always has a straddle. Why don’t you guys kill that straddle?

-If the entire table wants a straddle 3 blind game 1 individual can not turn it off unless the table itself is ok with it because the player is more than welcome to the game. Very simple and respectful to the players that have been playing.-

Is that so difficult…especially when there is only one table running.

According to the state's gaming commission he can choose to straddle or not. The rest of the table is welcome to their own choice also.

Yeah my answer to you would be - tough crap. You dont run the game - MGM does. They want to make it a 3 blind game, then make it one.

You're apparently OK with pressuring players to play a game they didn't come to the casino for, didn't sign up for on Bravo and may not want to play. And I'm not.

Again its this attitude that a handful of players keep up with that drives me crazy.

this is correct. also correct is the gaming commission allowing 3-blind games (actual 3-blind PLO ran a few times at MDL (pre MGM) but their ownership wanted a larger min buy-in and many recs wanted to buy-in short...so back to 5-5 w straddle)

I do think rooms should try new formats for some of the time rake games to mix it up (3-blind + ante, only ante/ double ante on the BTN) but the rooms are going to only change if there is demand for the new game type...the room has been getting more 5-10 it appears on Bravo but how many of those players are taking shots from 2-5/ are Recs who would rather use their 1.5k shot at 5-10 than 2-5....so sadly (perhaps) for lion if 3-blinds runs it more likely is going to be 2-5-10 with an ante than 5-10-25

@Adam Boone any legitimacy to the rumors that MGM is trying to get some new games approved (Dramaha, Archie)? If players wanted to find existing rule-sets and pass them on to MGMT would that be helpful?

You guys obviously don’t play 5-10 NL on the regular at night. Maybe during the day or once in a blue moon if you guys think that 5-10-25 isn’t popular or the majority is being pressured.
You guys also didn’t notice that I think buyin should be the same 600-2500.
I feel like it should be treated as the same game as 5-10 where it’s not treated as a new game and people get to go south but I bet you guys would like that.

Also if you’ve played at parx or md live their 5-10 most of the time play w/ a straddle as well. It’s not uncommon.
If they do an official 3 blind game maybe it will become popular if not it doesn’t hurt anybody 🤷*♂️
You guys are getting aggro over nothing if you think it won’t become popular.

When I say the whole table I mean literally everyone at the table and people that show up day after day knowing and expecting a straddle. First question from dealers when they sit at night are “is there an auto stradddle?”

Why is it ok for ONE person to ruin the party when they can just go play 2-5 or so called 2-5-10.

Players have grown accustomed to betting in smaller increments and don’t like the betting in 25 increments at 10-25 even though it speeds the game up and is more convenient for dealers. Also players like having a cap in games so the best players don’t come in and match them if they are up a lot. Well that’s what I think anyways…you guys obviously don’t want to hear it.
I could with out a doubt get 50 names to sign a petition saying that they are in favor (people that have actually played on a regular past year)
That’s a huge chunk of the player pool

I'm a break even 2/5 rec fish that might take a shot in the 5/10 but not if there is a 25 (semi) mandatory straddle.

Mgm player numbers included.
Also love how people on 2+2 are claiming to be recreational players.
These statements have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Ruin? LOL. Are you still on this? *You* seem to be the one that doesnt want to hear it.

You know why its OK? Because it isnt up to YOU to decide what games people play. This isnt your private home game. This sounds like a good rule for your home game.

If players want to show up and play 5-10 and not straddle, thats their right. If you dont like it, too freaking bad - dont play anymore.

Or get Adam to set you up a private game.

Same and....exactly this.

Just letting it be known that there is a demand for 3 blind game guys. You guys donÂ’t have to jump and defend the fact that there isnÂ’t when there is just cause the ppl interested arenÂ’t on this thread, Or call me out like IÂ’m a selfish jerk.
A petition sounds fair?Â…no?
Just airing out thereÂ…if it happens it happens. You guys enjoy your games not trying to step on anybody toes and get you all butt hurt.
It can be viewed the other wayÂ…the one person is forcing everyone to play a smaller game.

Just saying that there is a demand for a game in between the 5-10 and 10-25nl.
With a similar betting structure and buyin as 5-10-25. ThatÂ’s a true statement.
IÂ’m not forcing you guys on the thread to play this game. You guys can get your 5-10 going still that you guys plan to play one day.

If 3-blind NLHE is possible to spread, it’s likely that there would enough demand for a 5/10/25 game; however, the buy-in maximum should still be capped. 10/25 NLHE is uncapped and tends to play as a much nittier game.

IMO, 100BBs is the sweet spot for action + playability. A $1000-$2500 buy-in range for 5/10/25 would be ideal.

Chris is putting a schedule together for a possible "mini-series" for June or July. No ballroom or theatre space available for a large scale PPO so will have to be run in current space

It's important to distinguish between the NLHE straddle and PLO straddle, because there are some really big fundamental differences.

The argument that Johnny used to present was that some players might not want to make the stakes jump with the straddle (so they're OK with jumping from 2/5 to 5/10, but not 5/10/25), which is fair. However, that really doesn't hold up with PLO, because 5/5 is hardly bigger than the 1/2/5 game.

On the flip side, I'd argue straddles are more costly/worse -EV in NLHE than PLO.

What frustrates me the most is that there is no standardization if someone misses their blinds in a straddle game. If they want to buy in the button, then the options are:
1. They post their missed blinds AND they give the person to their left's the $ to straddle. This one is ridiculous.
2. They post their missed blinds, and the person to their left is expected to straddle again. Person to their left is pissed.
3. They post their missed blinds, and a hand is played without a straddle. Players at the table are unhappy.
4. They come in as the straddle. However, they don't have to pay their missed blinds. I think some dealers don't allow this?

The way it SHOULD work (and would work in a 3-blind game) is the player has to post everything they missed.

All that aside, bottom line, there is clearly VERY strong demand to make it a 3-blind game. I can't speak for the NLHE players, but I'd wager that 90%+ of the PLO pool would vote to make the straddle a mandatory third blind. If I had my way, I'd make it a rock that the last player who won a pot must post (like at the Aria and Delaware Park), but I'm not even sure if that would be allowed by the gaming commission's rules.

I'm generally in favor of straddles, but I think the reason why you're seeing griping about the 5/10 being auto-straddled is that it creates a gap in games since it's pretty rare to get a 2/5 table to agree to an auto-straddle. I haven't played much at National Harbor so I could be wrong, but that's my experience anywhere I've played 2/5. I also imagine that when the waitlists are super long, it makes the process of trying to figure out what game is appropriately big for any given individual more frustrating. Imagine heading to the casino with a few grand thinking it's a few 100bb bullets, waiting a couple hours, giving up a 2/5 seat, sitting down at 5/10 and discovering that it's actually a 5/10/25 and you basically have a bit over 100bb to fire. And if you want to go back to 2/5, you're going to have to wait awhile.

IMO a good solution for any room is to get a mandatory straddle plaque. If everyone agrees to put the straddle on and it lasts for 30+ minutes or 60+ minutes, the plaque goes down on the table and it's a mandatory straddle game and a majority of the players would have to agree to kill it. Ideally the plaque would be bright and easy to spot, so someone walking by to check on the game would know whether it was playing with or without the straddle. This would also make it officially okay to buy whichever blind position you were trying to come back into, including the straddle, so that the pot is right and you're not messing up the straddle.

It is their right, but it's generally bad etiquette to force players who have been playing with a straddle for a while to lose it, because people could be stuck big and thus they'll get super annoyed to halve the stakes. There are many things that are within a players' "rights" at the poker table but that are frowned upon.

I get that it's frustrating to want to play 5/10 and be stuck choosing between 2/5 and 5/10/25, though. Perhaps management can set up a time-raked three blind 2/5/10 game with no additional straddles allowed and make it 500-2K or something like that, then make the 5/10 game 1K min to 2.5K or 3K max? If enough people want to play it, it would solve the problems. Not a huge differentiation in buyin, but I think the games would play plenty different enough.

All NLHE plays better as a three blind game. I don't think I've ever met anyone who's played in a three-blind game for more than a few hours who disagrees, with frustrations about the stake level not withstanding.

I think adding the third blind does more to make the game better than cutting the stack sizes in half. IMO 150-200bb is the sweet spot, but there are so many variables that can swing it one way or the other.

Don't try and fix something that isn't broken. 5/T/25 "mandatory" straddle games voluntarily come together often enough. The pool is too fragile to start trying to further isolate players out of games, even if it comes at the cost of occasional players coming in and killing a straddle game. If we had 3+ 5/Ts every day maybe we could open up this option, but I see no need for it and could easily have detrimental side effects to something that already doesn't need fixing.

So, after a long hiatus, I returned to the room to put some decent chunk of time. I am happy to report that there have been many positive developments.

- The wifi worked every time I wanted to connect and it was a hassle-free experience.

- The fridge filled with water bottles was a nice addition.

- there were waitresses available 24 hours a day, even late at night. Granted, from what I understand the late night shift moved between the poker room and the ground floor below, but this is better than in the past when IIRC there were no waitresses late at night.

- I like that lucky table drawings are random now. Far less people playing a couple of hands every hour and then walking around.

- I noticed there are new dealers being added. That comes with growing pains, but it also means the room can respond better to increased demand.

One development that gives me pause however is the increased share of promotions being high hands rather than lucky tables or lucky seats. I completely understand that the pandemic had a negative effect on the promo fund and the switch to high hands is a hidden way to reduce rakeback. Ideally, it shouldn't be that way and more rakeback should be given, but I am understanding of the circumstances.

What concerns me is that high hands affect the way the game is played. Let me give an example from a hand I played a couple of days ago.

I am in 1/3 in the SB with KJ. BU raises to 15, I call, BB folds.

Flop (33) AQx.

I check, BU checks.

Turn A.

Since my hand seemed like an ideal semibluff candidate, I bet $20. BU folded.

As soon as the BU folded, I realized that there was a let it ride promo and if the T came on river, I stood to win something like $2500. Since the probability of the magical T hitting the river is only something like 2%, my expected value was far lower, something like $50. And of course is more complicated than that, since some times you bet and you get called and still hit the T or just win, other times you bet and you lose on the river. other times you check and you win or check and lose.

It's somewhat complicated to figure out exactly the EV of each action, although having thought about it, I do lean on checking being the best line. But the point is that high hind promos introduce incentives that make your decisions more complicated and preferred lines different from what poker logic dictates.

Having said that, I am fully cognizant that this dynamic may benefit me in ways I don't always see, mostly when people chasing high hands play passively in order to hit giving me free cards or not charging me as much as they should when I am second best. One can also make the argument that high hand promos attract more gambly type of players as opposed to lucky drawing promos which attract more nitty, less fun players. I don't think it's possible to determine with certainty if that's the case however.

On balance, I would prefer promos that don't affect poker play, though I do understand the room economics that drive these promos and I am completely open to viewpoints that think high hands are better.

This isn't the biggest deal in the world, so please take this as food for thought. Other people can chime in as well.

But again, overall, good job, MGM.

I like high hands, and I like your post.

The straddle is almost always good for the game. I can understand that someone taking a shot might not want to do it - but if everyone has been playing for a few hours and someone new goes to the game and doesn't want to straddle that doesn't seem right at all. If the game is brand new then that's fine, but don't go to a game that has been going for 5+ hours with everyone straddling and not straddle.

Can anyone tell me how long you have to leave a game for before you can come back with a new smaller stack size. Is it two hours?

It used to be one hour with you having an option to bring the full amount or start over up to 2 hours.