Great thread. I think TC's fold on that given river card seems fine given reasons already discussed. Krantz, you crazy though, sick bluff

Genius28 posts on 2p2? What's his handle?

excellent post, awesome thread...

sicko bump; I wish 2p2 was still like this...

I was just reading over some of my favorite threads from the past and happened to read this one from beginning to end not more than a week ago. Bizarre that it just got bumped.

Also, as for why we don't see this quality discussion much anymore...

This is a MAJOR reason and is just a shame. I know I have learned a great deal from posters on these boards, many of whom grace this thread with their thoughts as well as limon, cero_z, Ray Zee, El Diablo/Ulysees, and others and to name a few. Their lack of participation in serious discussion is no coincidence with the rise of trolls that populate these boards.

A true shame.

I remember reading this thread before I had even bothered registering under 2p2 and not understanding why durrr was against betting the turn. Unfortunately I still don't understand, though I also still agree that raising flop is best.

I also remember thinking that shoving is bad in comparison to calling / calling against described villain (even though I didn't even really know who krantz was til I met him at the wsop), and I still believe that to be true too.

Threads like this are a great read for those of us who missed them the first time around, thanx for the bump! There are a lot of good reads in the archives as well, like Jmans "three pairs" hand or this one where cts, aejones and FGators (among others) discuss opening ranges for 6-max NL.

This actually happends sometimes. Right now there is a very heated discussion about a PLO hand between durrrr, Jman28, Urindanger, Stinger and a few others if you just can weed through the crap in NVG

god i thought this was like last summer... time flies

people say this about 2+2 constnatly, every day, every month, every year of 2+2 existecne. i am sure that if you posted a hand here, or if TC posted another hand here there would be good discussion. you guys are not powerless if you want good discussion.

furthermore, in general, i think the idea that posting a hand and generating good discussion on here... leading to tougher games in poker... and leading to earning less money... is laughable and shows a lack of confidence the poster has in himself.

Its a shame that most threads now are about people hating on people...Your never gonna get the best players posting strat on here when you have guys starting threads about them cheating/or claiming they are busto....

This thread shows some great insight into the best players minds and i wish i could read more

tx

grunch

PF: this deep i'd say calling is fine. If I feel him starting to 3bet light, i'd probably make a smallish 4bet with this hand.

FLOP: I think there's a lot to discuss here. Even this deep, i should think that we would want to start building a pot. also, are we never bluffraising this flop?-Is our valueraising range here just made flushes. Even this deep, isn't it worthwhile protecting our hand?

TURN: std, we bet for value and call because we have so much equity in the pot, but don't fare well against his calling range.

RIVER: I have no idea what Krantz's valueshoving range is on this river. I can't imagine he'd shove a made str8, but maybe i'm wrong.

so you think that telling people how you think about playing poker makes them worse at poker? or it has no effect? seems pretty unlikely.

nobody's saying that they think they'll stop being winning players if they post strategy, but it definitely has a negative effect on your winrate to put out a lot of strat talk, especially when you don't know that the people at your table are lurking and have this information

I think this is the key right here, if people had any idea that all regs that played in the game checked out twoplustwo or conversely no one really did it would be a lot easier to post on two plus two but in reality its somewhere in the middle, with some people put in effort and go on the site as themselves trying to better the community and other people that want no one to know who they are and just lurk in the backround And when you run into joe blow in 6 max he has reads on you but the key is you dont know what reads its just impossible to figure out. I can understand the way things have been going in regards to twoplustwo although i really dont like it, i dont see it changing anytime soon

Which is why you should have a different sn on 2p2 than your poker site names, and not out yourself. Kinda late for that one, and obviously by this time the cash benefits to being known as a sick mofo have outweighed the cost of losing anonymity, but it has also led to the *near* demise of this forum. At least we get awesome threads like this one once in a while, though.

sickest bump ever.

i didn't defend my point of view. but you don't either. you make a nitpicking point which strictly speaking is true, but not too helpful or interesting.

Your original comment was more nitpicky than helpful or interesting.

yeh looks like youve really grown up

given that... my opinion runs contrary to that of almost everyone on this board, and given that... the matter regards whether good players actually post strategy hands in the strategy forum, could you please explain how i was nitpicking?

um, i didn't think that a very obvious point such as "telling people how you play poker makes them play better against you" requires too much of a defense. and my point isn't meant to be helpful, it's meant to explain why being helpful isn't a good idea anymore. and it's not "interesting" because it's so obvious that only you seem to not understand that it's true.

NIT
PICKS

ALL O F YOU

CJ, here is what I thought when I read your post:

explaining this is inconsistent with ariels view on the current state of knowledge within the poker / 2p2 community which i happen to agree with (over the only significant challenger to this position that bruiser articulated). None the less...Im compelled:

i dont remember seeing this but i cant believe that he was against betting the turn after flatting the flop (his hand has too much equity to check this turn behind)

Im guessing that you are using a binary calculus: air or value when considering the turn play. What you need to do is look at the number / combinations of hands in Krantzs range and their weighted equities. Then evaluate your hand strength within your range and how that relates to his range (for me this dictates that the best play is to shove turn)

Obviously, but I think krantz's c/r range here is more weighted towards airballs than semi bluffs, and the equity gained from folding out QsJx and whatnot does not make up for the equity lost when krantz shoves the river anyways after missing (and I strongly disagree with alaei that krantz is checking most of his airballs / missed draws considering he isn't really expecting us to fold most of our made range/non floats on the turn in the first place to the c/r when his line appears so damn fishy, so more of a setup to the homerun river imo).

i think durrrr meant the turn bet sizing is terrible, not the turn bet in general.

He probably would have said that if he meant that. His words: "Also i think your turn bet while stnd vs 95% of hsnlers, is pretty terrible vs krantz w/ these stacks."