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05-18-2010 , 06:54 AM
Live game with almost exclusively online players. Villian in the hand is a former Prima regular from Norway who plays some PLO on FT / Stars nowadays.
I haven't played live in a while and viewed as TAGish. Haven't got out of line and only shown one hand on the river (I won).

8 handed (2 sitting out). Villian (23K) opens UTG + 1 to 160, I (27K) call next in with 77. Everyone folds.

Flop is 9 8 7

Villian leads 220, I make it 580, villian thinks for 30 sec. and repops it to 1140. He was very very aggro online but played pretty straightforward this session so I elect to call. Range here is basically AA/KK/straight/set with very occassionally air.

Turn is the 9

Villians stares at the board for 15-20 sec. and checks. After a little delibaration I bet 1550. Villian tanks for close to 2 minutes and raises to 5000 straight (he usually bets weird numbers so no clue what to think of this).

We both have more than 16K behind so what is your plan and is there any way to dump this hand right here?
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05-18-2010 , 06:57 AM
If you're that worried, you could def. just check back the turn and rep 8T or something.
05-18-2010 , 07:26 AM
I think you're beaten, 88, 98s and maybe even 97s are definitly in his range here
->

I'd pukefold, especially this deep.

+1 checking back the turn is a possibility
05-18-2010 , 07:39 AM
Is villain really gonna 3bet this flop with AA/KK? With what intention?
05-18-2010 , 11:06 AM
the 3 bet pre is to build a pot since stacks are deep, checking flop is to rep AA/KK hoping you will bet a 9, no way does a straight or overpair ever go for a turn check raise when the board pairs... dont mind your turn bet here though, but i have to let it go cuz he's gonna lead for 10k on river
05-18-2010 , 11:12 AM
Check turn, call river bet. Don't out think yourself this deep, if he flopped a straight, he may elect to call your turn bet, but probably wont call your river bet (depending on sizing i guess) so i would check back turn and get value on river if he checks, call whatever he bets...

Now this spot sucks, I'd fold but him raising here with an overful is pretty sick... You called his 3bet on the flop and you have a taggish image, i mean, that screams set to me, i don't think you're raising his flop bet with TT (which you'd probably elect to rr pre) or 66 so your hand looks pretty much like what it is... I don't think he can put you on a bluff so it really seems like he's trying to get value from a lower boat...

Sick fold, but I'd fold.
05-18-2010 , 11:26 AM
I think the best line is bet folding the turn here, assuming you're relatively certain he wouldn't C/R the turn with a straight. I just don't think you'll see that many bluff c/r's on that turn so you can definitely bet to get value from his straights and overpairs.

as opposed to checking back:

strengths: good chance you get an extra bet from his straights, possibly his overpairs, or a hand like 9 10 maybe. Plus its nice to win the pot without showing your hand if you're going to get 1 bet either way.

weaknesses: may get bluffed out of the hand, so less likely to get to showdown. also may run into a river check raise from an overfull.
05-18-2010 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahh_snap
I think the best line is bet folding the turn here, assuming you're relatively certain he wouldn't C/R the turn with a straight. I just don't think you'll see that many bluff c/r's on that turn so you can definitely bet to get value from his straights and overpairs.
But is he going to call another big bet with those hands on the river? I don't think you can get another street of value from those hands...
05-18-2010 , 11:40 AM
check turn overbet river is hot. as played, I would prob call turn fold river in practice

Last edited by raptor517; 05-18-2010 at 11:45 AM.
05-18-2010 , 11:41 AM
i think his range for check-raising the turn for value has you crushed.

i think its unlikely he check/raise bluffs a hand that he 3bets on the flop (at least the value 3bet hands like straights, its somewhat possible for his 3bet bluffs but very unlikely imo). would be a cool bluffing line though as you are thinking about folding a hand pretty close to the top of your range.
05-18-2010 , 11:42 AM
the amount of bad advice itt is baffling
05-18-2010 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raptor517
check turn overbet river is hot. as played, I would prob call turn fold river in practice
Yea I like the check turn overbet river line too
05-18-2010 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofitall
the amount of bad advice itt is baffling
If you're going to say that post what you'd do.
05-18-2010 , 12:11 PM
its a terrible spot to overbet without very specific read. nothing hot about it.
05-18-2010 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by galen
its a terrible spot to overbet without very specific read. nothing hot about it.
Oh, now I understand.
05-18-2010 , 12:50 PM
Maybe I'm missing something...

Aren't we missing waaaaaayy too much value when we check turn and just call river?
05-18-2010 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger123
Maybe I'm missing something...

Aren't we missing waaaaaayy too much value when we check turn and just call river?
I think that depends on what you think he'll call...

If you bet a fair amount on turn, like 2/3 or something, is he gonna call a 1/2 bet on the river with a straight/overpair/anything that you beat? If you think he will, then do it, but I don't think most ppl will...

I'm not sure I would overbet river if checked to, I would probably bet the same amount as I would with a straight/bluff, that may be an overbet for raptor, but it's not for me ...

But when he bets the river, you raise, you think he's going to call with something you beat? I know that makes the case for a good bluff spot, but I can't see him calling a decent raise on the river with anything you beat, but if you're capable of bluffing in that spot, then go for that play imo.
05-18-2010 , 08:16 PM
I think I have to get this in here, and I wouldn't put villain on 97, 98, 99, and 88 really cuz villain prob wouldn't 3bet that on flop. I think villain has str8s and air only imo. On turn villain prob puts u on low str8 here and is tryin to get in his J10 imo
05-18-2010 , 11:28 PM
I don't hate your turn play, I prefer checking back to get value from straights on river...
as played I probly fold... our hand is kind of face up here, u kinda have a bluff catcher with this hand this deep, you've shown a good amount of strenght and the turn bet is just too big and you don't know each other and I think hes bombing the turn to get a good sized river bet

his flop play is interesting though, I wonder how he reacts if you reraise him to like 2.5k on flop...

if he does have nuts on turn I do like his play, he might be expecting you to b/c with your boats

I think theres also a lot of merite in calling flop, sure we are deep and we have a set but its a coordinated board and we have bottom set, I think only better hands will continue with a raise on flop, he might even fold overpairs without any history and ull be missing value
05-19-2010 , 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhateverSon
I don't hate your turn play, I prefer checking back to get value from straights on river...
as played I probly fold... our hand is kind of face up here, u kinda have a bluff catcher with this hand this deep, you've shown a good amount of strenght and the turn bet is just too big and you don't know each other and I think hes bombing the turn to get a good sized river bet

his flop play is interesting though, I wonder how he reacts if you reraise him to like 2.5k on flop...

if he does have nuts on turn I do like his play, he might be expecting you to b/c with your boats

I think theres also a lot of merite in calling flop, sure we are deep and we have a set but its a coordinated board and we have bottom set, I think only better hands will continue with a raise on flop, he might even fold overpairs without any history and ull be missing value

I pretty much like all of this...

On another note, I don't hate a flat on the flop either.
05-19-2010 , 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhateverSon
I think theres also a lot of merite in calling flop, sure we are deep and we have a set but its a coordinated board and we have bottom set, I think only better hands will continue with a raise on flop, he might even fold overpairs without any history and ull be missing value
Villain in the hand is Norwegian, I think forcing him off an overpair with one raise is not a big concern
05-19-2010 , 12:45 PM
Did he throw out a 5k chip or a bunch that added up to 5k?

If the latter, did he have any 5k chips? What had his tendencies been with chips up to this point (would he ever make it, say, 1000, with 5 100s and 1 500)?
05-19-2010 , 01:24 PM
i'm not betting the turn unless i have an idea as to why or an understanding of what i'll do to a raise..

as it stands its pretty gross and i guess it depends on how light he will get it in on hte turn and if he can expect you to have abare 9

also-- if he checked turn, i ch back, and he checked the river to me, i think overbet jam is pretty hot FWIW

anyhow if i think his range is 99/88/JT i'm getting it in on th eturn
05-19-2010 , 01:45 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about checking the turn here. In game I think I would call the turn raise and fold to a river jam.
05-19-2010 , 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAismyfriend
I'm not sure how I feel about checking the turn here. In game I think I would call the turn raise and fold to a river jam.
can you explain why this isn't bad? it seems awful to call his turn c/r if we don't think we have the best hand. if he is going to c/r this turn with the tip top of his range, hes going to be shoving the river. if hes tricky enough to play air this way or turn his big pairs into bluffs, hes going to be shoving the river.

flat his 3b on flop, check turn, call river.
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