don't give up!!

Nah dont give up. So your a breakeven player at best at the moment. Theres a ton of players that are a lot worse than you. You have a really solid base to start with. If you were a big losing player then you would have a ton of stuff to fix up to be a winning player. As it stands you are probably only a couple of things from been a big winner. Its just working out what those things are. I cant imagine that it is anything that isnt really obvious when someone looks at it from the outside in. Ship me that video as fast as you can, if you can do it for the weekend then i should be able to have a good look at it. You must have the basics down otherwise you would be losing so maybe you are over valueing overpairs or not value betting enough or calling too many turn raises etc etc, its just a case of finding out what it is.
Id love to do a hand history session with you but because of time restrictions its a bit difficult but another idea is getting some hands together that you have struggled with, not just bad beats, and video them as you run them through the replayer. Doing it this way means if i have 10 or 20 minutes spare i can go over the hands and then send you back the notes i make on the hands.
DONT QUIT!!!!! With a bit of help im sure you can crush this level and get back to enjoying poker.

if you want free coaching hit me up.
skype is: skaplun.
I'm a 50nl reg. I can help to get you out of 2nl in a day or 2.

I agree with the "quit looking at you BR" statement. The only time I truely worry about what the numbers are is when I'm taking a shot. If you're making +EV plays most of the time then reviewing your session will tell you that. Review you sessions, laugh at the donks who catch two outers and be happy that you getting your money in good.

Don't give up, brah. Things will turn around eventually. Keep reviewing your sessions and see if you made any mistakes (coolers and bad beats aside).

I'm running under EV too, and before our sweat session, I honestly thought I was gonna go busto when my BR reached an all-time low of $55. It's back up to $72 and I'm going up at a super slow rate. Bonus and rakeback really help though. If I actually thought I'll never reach $100 to break even, I'd quit.

But I do think I can turn my game around. And so can you. I know you can do it.

I had a look at your last session. I wasn't very impressed. You slow play/call/bet weakly too often with your good hands. You are easily afraid of scare cards (especially paired boards - they petrify you). But above all, you slow play too much which is almost never correct at 2NL.

1 terrible example:
you raise 5h5c in the CO. Both blinds call

BB has a stack of $1

flop (0.21) : Ad4c5s
BB bets 0.11. You call, SB folds

Turn (0.41)
BB bets 0.10, you call

River (0.61)
BB bets 0.04, you raise to 0.26 and win the pots

BB has 0.61 left

This post flop play was poor. You could have min-bet the flop and/or put a big raise on the turn, getting all-in on the river (if not before). There can be only 2 respectables outcomes: BB folds or you're both all-in. When you finally wake up (too late) and raise, you don't even raise half the pot. Getting 0.39 out of BB with a set is extremely WEAK. It is also -EV. You chase sets with small pocket pairs and when you hit, you don't bet/raise them and lose value.

And that's just one case, on PTR, I have seen TPTK getting one street of value only. This is the same thing being repeated many times. You fail to value bet big with your good hands except pre flop where there is no boards, hence no scare cards to scare you.

That being said, don't give up. Fix your value betting leak and you should turn into a big winner. Also stop posting the hands where you go all-in pre and provide us with hands showing some post flop action where we can help you more.

Also, forget about Ryan Fee's guide, it's totally overated. It was written by a high stake player and is not aimed at beating micro stakes. Playing Ryan Fee's loose starting hands will get you into trouble. Short handed 6 max players have high vpip which is totally inadapted to the micro stakes. And it describes plays that are too advanced as well. Applying his guide will not make you better, it will make you worse for the most part, I can guarantee that.

That being said, I really wish you luck and hope you won't give up.

Isnt the general opinion that this guide is like the bible for 6max. Theres a lot of things in the book that explain things very well, yes you shouldnt read it and jump straight in to games and start playing 30/25, but to dismiss it totally it is only the person who could read it that is losing out.
So Fees describes plays that help you beat small and mid stakes but you say that you guarentee that it will make you a worse player. How can this be? If somebody could read the guide and appy everything correctly as written then they would crush the micros and small stakes. The problem is though that people dont apply things as written that is why the experience of trying new things and slowly appying them to your game while at this level is invaluble. I wish i had done it at this level because it is certainly a lot harder when you have to do it at higher levels.

Also i think the hand example is bad. I would play the hand almost the same at nl50. We cant put the villain on a big hand as most villains would raise a decent Ace from the blinds. The board is super dry, why would we want to raise to push the villain off what we can pretty much deduct is a medium strength hand at best. The villains betting says he dosnt like his hand that much. I think this hand was played pretty much as +EV as it could be. However if the turn brought a card that made the board super drawy like the 6 of Spades then yes it would have to be raised to charge the villains draws.

Hey, don't quit!
I do know the feeling though. I had my roll up to ~$70 in the beginning of June and was starting to think about moving up. Then all of a sudden I started losing and it didn't end. whenever I had a winning session a bigger losing session would follow and eventually I went broke. Luckily I had VIP points to trade in for cash to get a new BR to start from.
In retrospect I think that going broke was a good thing because it made me realize that what I was telling myself was just a long downswing was in fact a subtle kind of tilt that made me make calls when I deep down knew I was beaten and shove with marginal hands. If I ran hot for a session I quickly became a victim of winners tilt instead and came in guns blazing the next session usually spewing of the winnings from before.

So going broke really made me realize what I have read here probably a hundred times before: Don't get fancy.
From this point on I tightened up my game a bit and started using the fold button a lot more and I got to 5NL a lot quicker than I expected. Not from winning more but from losing less.

So, hang in there, you'll make it.

@EhKay47, This is one thing that I think is a huge problem for me, checking my BR and my graph, the aftermath of this being that if i'm down even a small amount I stay frustrated for the whole session rather than playing like a thinking player, im playing like the results orientated player.

Not too keen on nitting it up and I think if you use some fancy play and it doesn't work then you've probably mis-judged the villain, I've done this sometimes before although try to keep it as ABC as possible, I need to make more notes although I'm getting better at marking out calling stations etc.

Hijack away! I'd rather people post life stories than nothing at all,

Thanks for the post, it's good to see someone in the same situation, just got to work hard and grind it out.

@ThorDrDn, I'm not even massively under EV, however after taking a break and thinking through where I lose the most money, I think its those times when I don't raise the BTN or squeeze the limpers IP, of course I can't do it every hand but the odd occasion where I do miss the oppurtunity will add up.

Also if I c-bet with second pair and get min raised, cold calling to fold the turn is probably a huge leak and I should decide on the flop, fold or raise.

It will balance if I play in the right mind frame, I think that a lot of the time, losing 1/2 80/20's puts me in a down mood which affects the rest of my session.

@Happyeaster, I'm not and never will!

@MartL, I'll make the vid for this weekend for you, I can post some HH's here or message you them or the vid, whichever you prefer.

I do have a really solid base and I think I do the basics of 2nl/6max very very well but I agree that the aspct of my play that is keeping me from break even and winning must be a very small thing but something that is obviously huge in relation to being break even/a winner.

I've only been trying to beat 2nl for 6max and I pretty started from scratch then, I've come a long way from then, from being ~-5.5/100 to now 0/-1/100.

Thanks for the post .

@Skaplun, free coaching??? Well if your a 50nl reg, im 100% up for this, I'll add you on skype.

@Donkeekong99, I find it so hard to laugh of the idiots taking my money no matter how bad they play :/ but it's something I need to do more, realising when im actually making +EV decisions and when i'm not.

Having said that I'm still confident that im 80-90% of the time making +EV decisions, but there are leaks that are holding me back.

@Ohaither, I know you can do it as well, poker isn't for the supernatural of this world, anyone can be successful at it, swings are just part of poker but they are the toughest part, discipline and emotional control come into this game so much its unbelievable :/.

@Donkey111, I rearely ever slow play unless I think it's the best way to get more value, I'm never intentionally checking the flop and turn to try and get it in on the river, that's just stupid. I'm afraid of scare cards depending on the villain, and a lot of the time i'm able to bet the river slightly small to just get a call, its more +EV to do this then to check and let them pot it, it's known as a blocking bet? thin value as well but in some cases villain is more than happy to just call with his small hand.

the example you posted, i'm surprised you dont take the same line, can I ask what do you put him on, do you think hes strong enough to call a raise or get it all in, I'm pretty sure hes on a gutshot or just a pair + gutshot. I dont know how much experience you have of 2nl but imo i got the most value and played it in the most +EV way. If I take your line and raise the flop, hell maybe call, if i raise the turn, hell most likely fold, by cold calling im not showing strength and he can pay me off. Min bet the flop? hmm no never.

Getting with one street of value with TPTK, there is one explanation for this, they fold the turn... Of course im raising for value pre flop, and value betting big on a dry board is just going to close the villain out, betting smaller will get called, unless the board is drawy there is no need to bet the pot or slightly under, half/60% is fine.

However you are the only person to point out I have a value betting leak, so maybe thers a lot of weight there or none at all, personally I don't think I do have a leak there, but without seeing my villains cards when I am betting for value, it's hard to realise if im scaring their TPTK vs my TPTK off (unlikely at micros).

Ryan Fee's, I argued this as well, for the micros perhaps it isn't as effective as it would be at 200nl, however I still think as a 6max guide, it is very relevant to any stakes, I won't follow everything but ill definitely look to strike a balance between micro tactics and 6max.

Thanks for the post and gl wishes. GL to you as well, btw what game/stakes do you play?

@MartL, Agree it's a gradual development rather than an instant change and expecting great results. I will be looking to slowly get there with it as I move up stakes, but one step at the time is the way as MartL and many others recommend, a lot of people recommend the book and unless they all want to see me go broke, it's hard to argue against them.

Agree 100000% with the hand, "Poker is simple, your opponents make mistakes, you profit" - It was the most +EV way to play the hand as if he was betting out on a small hand he was making a mistake, the only time I play this wrong is if the board is wet and I just cold call each street giving him the odds/price to get there.

@lfl76, so your recommending i go broke? just joking, but i'm glad you didn't just give up after that and that it was a good experience rather than a negative one. I think this is one big leak, making too many calls when really I have to fold, I'm not saying im calling down the board on small hands but when the flop and turn is check check and then i call the river, even if its a small amount it will still make a huge difference.

As you can probably tell I'm not quitting, ever, I was just so frustrated yesterday but I've learnt from it so it's onwards and upwards.

Thanks all for the posts again, GL all!

just tilted off 4 BI's, after calling a check shove on the flop when i knw he was bluffing, i had Q high, they had K high.... rewarded for making the correct decison, nope.

Also had fh vs quads as well, so im thinking a week or 2 break is needed.

BR: $76.59

.................................................. .................................................. ..................

If you tell me, HOC, NLHETAP, the poker blueprint or Harrington on online cash are the bible, I would completely understand even if I may disagree. Ryan Fee's guide is terrible for the micro because the player playing micro stake are very different from the players playing high stakes. Things like bluff shoving or playing 98s from UTG will get you to spew chips at this level. Besides, his guide is poorly written.

High stake players can make tough folds and their post flop play is excellent and they can play a wide range profitably. They also need to play deceptively against other quality players. Loose games are quite specific to this level. Even at mid stake, play is generally quite tight. The number one leak of the micro stake players is that they call too much with marginal hands. They like their ace/face cards and can't get rid of it even when they should.

Assuming that he is weak because he bets weakly is an assumption that is as good as mine: maybe he's got an ace and don't want to scare you off. A A high flop is a very good flop for a set with a 50bb stack size. With such a low amount, he may commit his stack if he has an A. I don't see his bets as block bets. To me they are fish bets. As I said earlier, micro stakes player call too much. Raising the turn is the best thing you could do against someone hoping to catch a lucky cards on the river with incorrect odds. Forget thin value. Micro stake is all about fat value betting.

We don't care if he sometimes folds. Thinking "How much should I bet for him to call?" is totally incorrect in NLHE. You should ask yourself: "How much should I bet to maximise my expectation?"

EV equation can be calculated. In order to get more value than 19.5bb (as you did), villain needs to call an all-in more than 26% of the time, all-in that you can spread over 3 streets (2 shoud be enough for 50bb). Considering that he bets like a fish and play with half a stack, he is likely to be a caller. A strong betting line has much better EV that your weak calls.

You play is -EV because you invested 3.5bb pre flop to get 23bb. As you get a set 1 out of 8.5 times (11%). you EV = (0.11 x 23) + (0.89 x -3.5) = -0.59bb.

I played 20k hands at 2NL on party. Now doing well at 4NL. Unlike Ryan Fee, I know the stakes I am talking about.

You should take the offer from skaplun btw.

GL

Don't know the details of the hand but I believe in FR and 6max, A high is the minimum to be considered a bluff catcher (and a poor one at that).

Session: 506h, +1.73, Session WR: 17/100

$4.34 rakeback was payed in, so BR $82.64, some recovery to my monkey session and finally a winning session put in.

Not been funny now but in all seriousness what stakes do you play at the moment? From your posts it looks like mainly nl4? Just from you mentioning the Poker Blueprint, another book that is aimed mainly at small stakes players, is this another book you would dismiss as been pretty much usueless at nl2?
Play at mid stakes may be tight which is why it is important now to learn post flop skills so you can loosen up a bit, afterall we all know that a very good LAG is nearly always more profitable than a very good TAG. Ive played a bit of nl2 6max in the past few days for this challenge just so i can get a feel for how the games play so any advice i give can be valid. I know that i can jump on any random tables and play a 30/25 style and crush. We know that people at this level find a reason to call instead of to fold but its simply a case of applying pressure and applying it at the right times. A lot of the play i used will be covered in Fees guide but the difference is that i know how to apply a lot of it correctly which ultimatley comes with experience and this experience can be gained cheaply at this level.

@Donkey111, For your reply to MartL, at the micros I think it all depends on table dynamics, of course if the table is very loose/passive, play tight and vbet your big hands, if the table is tight/nits, loosen up but like MartL said, its cheaper to learn post flop skills at 2nl rather than 10/25nl... and of course you get better at understanding player types. I assume there will be calling stations at 2nl as well as 25nl and therefore it's my duty to realise this and then adapt accordingly.

A lot of people say micros = play tight, value bet, don't bluff. But really your not learning a whole lot about the game you play or the other aspects of poker. Also a big mistake would be to take a book like Ryan Fee's and then follow it step by step instead of introducing each aspect one by one and then evaluating.

Example: More often than not, he doesn't have the A, there's a reason why people say 2nl players stack off lightly and over value hands, if he had an A he would bet bigger.
If I raise and he folds his weaker hand that is behind, I'm missing value, by calling it is still fat value because I'm way ahead and I got as much as I could out of the hand.

How much can I bet for him to call and how can I maximise my expectation seems to me to be part 1 of part 2 but taking a different line. E.g. Value betting = how much will he call, how can I maxmise my expectation = can I afford to check or just call here if I believe I can get more value by taking this line.

I care if he folds a weaker hand, If he's betting into me and hes behind and not giving himself the right odds, its his mistake and my profit, if I raise his the villain when there way behind and scare them off, its lost value.

A strong betting line from myself can only occur If I raise the flop/turn or he checks to me and I lead.

I'm not sure if you saw the whole hand but you didn't take into account the PFR play, e.g. if he raises from utg and another player calls who is 100bb deep, its +EV, If I opened the pot and he calls OOP, its still +EV for the amount of times it gets around and the blinds fold, not taking into account the times I c-bet and they fold.

I'm glad you've beaten 2nl and are now playing 4nl but rating yourself as a micro god and saying Ryan Fee's doesn't know the stakes he's talking about it seems a little over confident to me.

What was your WR at 2nl and so far at 4nl, volume for 4nl as well? If you had beaten 2/4/10/25nl I would consider your views fully as they hold a lot more weight.

@MartL, +1 as well, good solid advice as always.

I've found that one week of bad beats can wipe out an entire month of hard work. 2nl players love, love, love flush draws, gutshots, and similar hands. They don't understand pot odds, so when you put your money in on the flop and turn, they don't care. All they see is their flush or gutshot straight draw.

This is hugely profitable in the long run, of course. But, if you get a week of bad beats, it can make a huge dent in your bankroll.

I've learned that I grossly underestimated variance when playing micros.

Good luck!

Just made video for MartL, If anyone else would like to see it, feel free to ask.

Ended at $-1.45, 288 hands, overall played kinda well imo although there were a lot of spots where I was getting 3bet and didnt find the balls to push over the top with K high type hands... I think I got 4bet as well and didnt push there either with AK.

So yeah hopefully MartL can help with my play in general and spots like those. Also can Iron out how well I played vs variance even over this extremely small sample any feedback would be great.

As I write this the video is exporting to AVI, so if you message me or if MartL reads, i'll send as soon as it's done.

EDIT: My stats today were also 24/23, 3bet: 7%
WTSD: 25, W$SD: 44
att to steal: 49, fold to stel 97/85 (sb/bb)

Just thought id add...

I'll look at it, man. I'll PM you my e-mail.

pm me link

You will notice that there are a lot of TAGS (tight aggressives, usually regulars) and there are draw chasers. It's pretty much ABC poker, but there are fish who will donk off a stack with middle pair. (Trust your PT3 HUD) Another thing I've noticed is you have to be aware, especially when you're in a big pot, that a lot of fish will call raises with Q5 suited, K4 suited, etc....You can't get caught thinking "There's no way he called that raise with a 3" when there's two 3's on the board. You have to take 2NL for what it is. Variance can kick your ass because of all the draws people chase, but you can't let it get to you.

I would say I'm doing well at 2NL. I started with $20 and wanted to get to $100 so I could move up to 5NL. Right now my earnings is at $79 (5.6 BB/100, 31k hands), but I'm above $100 thanks to rakeback.

If you're on FTP don't even bother going to 5 NL. There's only like 3 or 4 tables usually and they're almost always full of regs and nits. Just grind your way up to 10 NL.

The poker blueprint is aimed at 25NL-100NL. It is a lot more relevant to 2NL than Ryan Fee's guide. Still, there are element from the poker blueprint that I don't think are worth implementing yet such as 'balancing your range'.

I think we will have to agree to disagree about when to learn advanced moves, the value of Ryan Fee's guide and how to play a set. That being said, I quite agree with your last post.

I have never played 10/25NL. You shouldn't consider my advice based on my winrate. I was able to provide numbers to back up my claims. Saying that you shoundn't play a small pocket pairs for set value unless you get post flop over 8.5 times your pre flop investment on average is not my opinion. It is just simple mathematics. Whoever says otherwise is plain wrong whether they play 2NL or 25/50 like Ryan Fee.

I am sorry if I sound over confident or arrogant but most of the opinions that seem mine aren't: "betting an amount to maximise expectation" is better than "how much an opponent is ready to call" is not my idea, it is Sklansky's, and he backs it up with numbers as well. Ryan Fee's starting hands look like a disaster waiting to happen at micro stakes compared to Harrington's loose starting hands range, etc.

My winrate at 2NL FR was a little over 4ptBB/100 (=8bb/100) and it is about the same at 4NL 6max (33k hands). I think this is decent but nothing to brag about. Listen, when I was a 2NL losing beginner not such a long time ago, I posted hands and was given a very rough ride by the posters here because I was check/calling too much with big hands, was betting too late, too little and so on. It was hard to accept criticism but you have to be humble enough to recognise your limitations if you want to improve. In retrospect, I am glad I posted these hands and I am even grateful to those who were a bit harsh, no matter what their winrate was.

But I am not posting here to speak about me. I don't want to derail this thread any further. It is not about me but about you, OP. So if you or MartL have any further disagreement, I will answer by PM.

Again, don't give up, you're probably just one or two tweaks away from being a big winner.

hey, I would like to watch the vid also.

PM link plz n ty

Send me a PM, would like to see it.

@Ryanblan, this is where being able to fold to resistance is so important at 2nl/micros, tbh my losses are probably more from making small mistakes and then tilting from bad beats or because im making mistakes. blame variance lDO.

@gootie42, I learnt this a while ago about moaning that the fish are calling with trash, I read a micro guide which made me understand that its good that they do this but you have to fold to resistance and accept it.

Nice WR and sample at 2nl, good to see you beat 2nl and are now at 5nl.
Not sure how much you've played on FT but yes there are regs and nits but there are definitely more than 4 games going.

Thanks and GL!

@donkee111, If i don't consider your advice based on your WR, what do i consider it on? your word vs mine?

I feel as if you were slightly ignorant to my last post, I know the maths behind set mining but I already explained the situation and mathematically and in terms of +EV, it was +EV to raise my PP

It's only a disaster waiting to happen if the player doesn't understand why he's doing it, why it applys to their limit and if they try and do it all at once.

I'm not giving up and i'm sure im so so so close to becoming a winning player, you can derail thread all you like, i might have started but i dont mind who posts or how long they post or what they post. Post your life story if you want...

I replied here as you can see but feel free to pm a reply or post here and i'll pm back if you wish.

@rafybass, Will send vid to you today, ill send in email if thats ok? I have your hotmail I think.

@Ohaiter, drop me your e-mail and i'll send it later today.