River is a b/f unless you have reads that he could be a spaz and could possibly bluff with A of hearts.

Obvious fake. Real Loch Ness Monster would only drink single malt.

Still a b/f, though, as wait says above. It's gross, but hold your card funeral and send them to Davy Jones.

+1 to 350. Gross river but not a chance I am not betting for value here. I think sets and 2P are a bigger portion of V's range than flushes given how the hand went down.

In hindsight I am really on board with this sizing.
If sets and 2P are a bigger part of V’s range like we agree, what do you make of his river shove?
If this is a gross river, there are a lot of gross rivers (any heart, any pairing of the board), so shouldn’t my 175 on the turn be bigger as well?
I’ll admit there was a part of my thinking that was... “if I go 300+ here I’m really gonna find it near impossible to fold if he shoves being so committed.”
If I go 200+ on the turn, I definitely would be betting 350+ here.

My hand feels totally face up as exactly 10-8 to me in this spot, which is probably why people were advocating a potential b/b/b line before.

I'm never one to put someone on just one hand, but this smells a lot like AhJh here. This is a very small part of his river range especially with the limp/call, but after he shoves it becomes a much larger part. 8hTh also possible, and maybe some oddball turned combo draws like QhTh.

He has the potential to be turning Ah9x or AhJx in to a bluff here, but that's not very common in LLSNL.

You are right. I’m not a big scotch drinker, but a double single malt shot would make far more sense here.

Within about 5 seconds of him shoving I said, “so obviously you have the ace of hearts.” About a minister later I asked him if he would show me his hand if I fold and he intelligently stone-walled me with zero response. He gave me nothing at all in terms of live reads during this part of the hand and afterwards the dealer told me that he never shows cards if there’s no showdown regardless of whether or not he’s bluffing.
So I took what I’m sure was over 5 minutes replaying the hand in my head and trying to range his most likely holdings, 99% sure that he has the ace of hearts here, but thinking of the second card possibilities.

Some people never limp with unsuited aces. If he is a solid player I think we can find a fold if he is solid.

Back to pre flop. I get wanting to control variance so check is ok but 8Ts is a pretty interesting hand, if you're the best player in the hand you should raise. And if you don't think you're the best player you shouldn't play so raise 100%.

Not really tho but T8 is interesting because its 0ev vs the deck. Breakeven hand so if you can make money with it you know you got skill. Being out of position makes it harder but more fun too

Imo my bigger advantage comes postflop in my game. I’m usually all for seeing as many cheap flops as possible with these types of hands. I would honestly rather raise preflop with a more polarized range. For me, this is an almost ideal hand to just check pre here.

check is fine too, i tend to get way to aggressive sometimes, it's not necessary to be so aggressive all of the time but I don't think you should play this exactly the same way every time, raise some of the time from the BB imo, b/b/b some of the time post flop. these decision points that are equal we should be switching up depending on dynamics, image, or just plain randomly

as for the river, I would be going back in my mind to see if villain had limped with unsuited cards in the past, if he's a good player he probably only likes limping suited cards so if you put him on the ace of hearts i think a fold is fine

I hear ya. I raise here the odd time. More likely to against 2-4 players than 6 though, and more often in LP. A big part of what made this PAHWM worthwhile to me though was how decisions on every street massively affected how the remainder of the hand played out.
If I raise pre it would have changed everything.
I would have led on the flop too if I raised pre.
I would have led the turn if I led the flop.

Ok, so I tank and tank.
I’m sure V has Ace of hearts, but I’m discounting A-Kh and A-Qh pretty heavily.
I think if he has nut flush here it’s likely A-2, A-3, A-4 or A-J, and A-10 less likely.
I kinda discount A—6 and A-8 a fair bit even though I unfortunately gave him a good price on the turn to draw out on me.
Like Garick said, I hate to put a player on one hand, but the more I thought about it, the more I feel like he has A-Jhh or just the Ace of hearts. I give this player enough credit to put me in a really uncomfortable spot here with just the Ace of hearts.
Also, my hand feels so face up, I think he puts me on exactly what I have.
He shoved without taking much time at all and that made me a bit suspicious too.
Results: I call figuring if I’m right about a third of the time I break even long-term.
He has AhAs somehow.

Wow! Just a reminder to us all that our ranging on Vs is usually too tight. I mean, I had a lot of Ah in his range, but never would have had him on the second A, just because of pre. I guess he was trying to trap someone he thought was going to raise and it failed.

Same. I was really surprised by A-A as well. Wasn’t in my mind at all, but makes total sense minus the preflop limp. It was a pretty weird hand, fun to play, stressful river decision. I really like his river bluff.
After the hand he said if you have hearts you’re good so I knew 10-8 was good. I think he thought I had 10-8 hearts when I tank called. He definitely had me on 10-8. His river shove was 100% a bluff.

I think 325-350 is a better river bet from me, but I wonder how it changes the hand... does he still shove? Do I still call? I really don’t know.
As is, I’m actually better than 0EV on a river call if I’m right around 30%, but I really don’t like relying on that math logic in LLSNL often at all.

haha, cool hand

something you said earlier may not exactly be true, the goal of playing it differently is to get exactly the same amount of money in regardless. We want to have 2 different ways of playing it that get exactly the same money in the pot

had you bet flop and bet turn it's likely we would have gotten the same amount of money in the pot just a different way of getting it there, what we gain is deception

I like that you pegged him on having the Ace of hearts, that was half the battle, then you moved on to the other card and assessed the combos, compared it to the pot odds, and made the right call. The river is really where the money is made. the rest is just technique

NH

Very interesting hand. I think his propensity to turn his hand into a bluff is less when we bet more OTR simply because he will assume that we will call more often because we are getting a better price. That is why a b/f line when you bet larger is better (IMO) because when they do shove it is rarely if ever a bluff at these levels. Not saying you induced his play by betting only $240....but he correctly made the assumption he could put you in a very difficult spot with remaining stacks whereas if you had bet $350 he can't make that assumption anymore.

Nice call.

Right, I totally 100% agree. The interesting thing is that I feel like in the moment on the river I did go a bit smaller knowing that I was leaving myself more vulnerable to a shove, but I was trusting myself to make the right decision if he decided to make the ace of hearts a bluff hand.
His plan on turn was clearly to hit boat or bluff any heart.
I am also pretty positive that I was bet/folding a similar size if the board paired.
Feeling like he had 2pair/sets on the turn was a factor in my bet size and shove call for sure.
Not saying I induced intentionally or anything, I hated when he shoved.
It’s kinda a sick compliment to him that I call, his A-A surprised me, but my read was also right. He had ace of hearts and the set.

I still think 350-ish is the better play long term OTR AP in most LLSNL situations.
In a mid-high stake, higher aggression game the money is usually in on the turn, or I’m shoving river and he has the tough decision.

You could argue that if you bet bigger it becomes more of a fold if he raises.

Also lost in all this it's sort of a reliable tell when villain proudly says all in with two hands. Part of the strength is weakness thing

Yeah, for sure. That’s what Shorn and I were agreeing on above.
It makes it an even more unlikely bluff.
I think that is a trick Durrrr (I’m not a fanboy) used (uses?), the all-in shove over a significant river bet when stacks are next to completely depleted with second best hand. It’s so ridiculously strong that it’s hard for it not to be the nuts, even more perfect when you have the nut hand blocker.

I also agree on your strength tell. That was one of the many minor reasons that I chose call. If he took longer and acted like he had more to think about I would probably still be trying to decide. Him only taking a few seconds and making a pretty confident shove with the double hand wave was a small tipoff.

For future HH’s. Where’s the hide results function please?

Nice hand.

This is a pretty sick play by V and I wonder if he had that plan on the turn—shove all paired and heart rivers. He has the nut hand to do it with and seems like we could've sized way up on the turn.

It's the button marked "SP."

Please don't include results, even in a spoiler, until the discussion has died down, though. People just can't resist looking, and then it skews their responses.

Thought discussion had died down from the posters that had been involved.
There was a couple posters that I was curious what they would think, but they never posted on this one. I’ll wait an extra day or two next time before posting results.

I think the biggest misplay of the hand on my part was not sizing up a fair bit on the turn.
I’m also going to mix more b/b/b lines in these spots from now on.

Thanks for the input everyone.