Personally i would bet like $40 where villain cannot help but cry pot odds and call with JJ TT Qx etc. which i think is a bulk of his range.

note: If your estimation of the meta is such that the villain can possibly think you will turn 88 into a bluff here with the $100 bet, then i like it better. Only hero can be the judge of that though. I will say that if it is even possible, that gaining $100 infrequently maybe better than gaining $40 more frequently. Again , that ratio comes from heros judgement as well.

(Some players cry pot odds at the $40 and call religiously, and others see the $40 as a milk valuebet and wont fall for it. This is where the "feel" of the situation comes in. Which way villain falls off the fence here per heros best guess).

Is anybody checking it back again?

There is wisdom and truth in this.

Holy cow! I've never had the cajones to do so; but I haven't EVER seen this type of Vil sitting at a 1/2 table of mine.

Again I ask: How do u know he's super strong?

That's not what anl is saying....if it was he'd say bet flop.

The fact is we don't know and donkey.betting flop is usually strong after calling a 3bet oop.

Why risk turning our hand face up when we have two more streets to extract value.

My, my, yes. The part of Vil's range that gets cbet absent us donk-leading is staggering. I've no idea if he's weak, strong, republican, or democrat when the flop peels . . . just enjoy the $$ he dumps Hero with the cbet most times.

We screw it up a super-large % of the time with a donk that appears like *WE* are strong most times, to most Vils.

interesting discussion. ANL, I am curious, under what circumstances would you donk flop heads up? would you ever do it in a 3bet pot, where hero raise/called pre OOP?

i dont think he is very strong. thats the whole point.

This is not a rhetorical question: How do u know he's super strong?

First thing that pops into mind would be this. I flat from blinds with KQo. Villain who is routine and not extremely great thinker or handreader...opened fairly wide form CO however does NOT have a high air cbet IP. Tends to check back A hi and midpairs etc pot controlling IP.

Flop ... Th 9d 2h

I donk half pot. Depending on how strong villain seems in calling, i will fire turn and pot river (or shove depending on stack) on bricks, as well as hearts, as well as A, and valuebet K or Q or J.

It would have to do with flop texture, villain tendencies etc. WE just always have to look at what we hope to accomplish with bets or checks, what villains range mostly is, what he will do with that range etc.

Almost all situations can be broken down into a question format which would lead most players to the obvious conclusion. The trouble is, most players only think narrow minded, or think of only one variable and run with it.

IMO, meshanti above flops a great hand and has visions of stacking his villain. These visions should only be there IF villain is willing to participate and until hero finds this out, hero should start off trying to make optimal cash vs villains range as a whole, THEN go for the throat when villains range is narrowed a bit to a strong holding.

Make sense?

I see the hand either by villain showing it and mucking or another player is inthe hand and it goes to showdown. How else would i know?

if you check it to me twice, i'm betting turn w/ air everytime, but thats me,
I'm a spazz.

ANL, your reasoning is sound, but Vs image of H, and the history may tweak the dymanic a bit??

lol, I think about half the times I've seen quads get flopped the board checks through on 3 streets and the guy says "I couldn't bet that!" I'm glad to see during the NGing that others suggested the c/c flop lead turn/river line. I think it's been said but often times people play too straightforward in 3-bet pots. They don't c-bet air enough, and they snap fold UI or if overs flop to their PP. Even against this aggro I think trying to get him to bluff more than one street is a mistake. He's showing more straightforward tendencies by checking back the flop, so I think we are going to have to be the aggressor here. He's also never betting JJ/TT on this river. Checking flop was good. Checking turn was a mistake. Checking river is turning into "that guy" (see above). If there's ever a street to get crying calls on, it's this river.

I wont argue that, but when 2 players are thinkers, and one flats 3b OOP, then its really really hard for player 1 to disguise his hand. Which is why this spot is GREAT to turn 88 into a bluff if in fact we somehow stepped in crap and got there to the flop.

River: 7x
$75 (2 Players) Hero bets $100 (4 Green Chips)

Say we are the Villain... Given the action to this point, what hands are we calling Hero's river bet with? (In other words... how low do we go?)

I know exactly what you're speaking of ANL,
how many times have you been donked into, and had an easy fold, and laughed inside knowing he/she just cost themselves a bet, because you were firing as a continuation every time??

It's tough. I bluffcatch a bit too much so I probably call with Ax. It's tough to know what I'd do in this spot because I almost never check back flop/turn with any hand I'm willing to call a river bet with.

If V is shutting down, and is obv acknowleging that the flop pegged your range when you call the 3-bet OOP, then I don't see checking river as an option, because he's obv not betting himself.
If anything, bet to not have to show, which has some value;
he obv needs a pair to call any bet on the river,
your image is not sick enuf, and your hand is too face up to get called by K hi, say, if he had a hand like K5??
If he has an Ace, he's the sickest soul-reader, lol.
the thing about waiting til the later streets is that you lose any spazz value,
thats why I advoacated a less than pot sized donk, if not OTF, then on the OTT.
the check, check, bet line, and esp. the check, check, check-raise line looks just like a set, and your hand is face up to a competant hand reader?

How do u feel when they show u a draw and got u to fold the better hand?

do you guys really give THAT much respect to donk bets? i agree that when the flop is pretty wet, a reasonably sized donk bet from a somewhat aware player (esp. multiway) usually means 2pr+ or at least a good made hand of some sort. donking a drier flop is different IMO. in this hand, i consider the flop medium dry: it's not bone dry obviously, and hits everyone's range pretty well, but it's not wet enough that if we had a set we'd really have to bomb flop to deny drawing odds.

as such, i'm not convinced that we're repping that much strength by donking flop. from villain's perspective, hero doesn't have much to protect his hand against if he has 2pr+, so why wouldn't he c/c, capturing the cbet. this is why i initially said donk $45 OTF, because an aggressive thinking villain here will often think hero's FOS, and perhaps even semibluff raise his TT or JJ. And I think donking flop is pretty decisively a better line if in fact villain holds Ax. so all together, i feel like in this particular spot it's higher EV than checking flop with the intention of c/c.

ANL please respond

I actually think check/bet turn is stronger...

But I was convinced earlier we still need to bet turn

I agree w/ you, just saying i can understand both angles, that's all.
I almost never donk bet, and there are prob just a few players that are aware ,and i have enough history w/ that would find me donking in this spot quite strange. against a random, it's obv fine/ not bad.
I think the question is, how does this V view KUDs propensity to donk in 3-bet pots??
maybe he will post ITT??

I still think it's interesting if we donk 1/4 pot on the turn (or flop/);
it puts V in a awkward spot of having to fold, which is the same as him telling the table that he had 56suited when he 3-bet PF>

Exactly my thinking... That is why I am still confused as to why this line isn't the most optimal. Sure, we lose a cbet if villain has air....but it may get a checkraise from his semibluff range as well as AK.

Maybe as an overall strat, it isn't an optimal line against villain's entire range...But if we are targeting villain's Ax or draw range, this line will surely get more $$ into the pot
Villain may perceive hero's range as Ax and hero donking flop to see if his Ace is good. Thinking villain can raise to push hero off the hand, repping a stronger Ace or 2P .
ANL please explain why I/we are not thinking correctly

Not ANL, but, anyway...

The reason its so strong is the hand as played. We are not talking about a raised pot with 5 people in it. If it was a standard hand, yep donk bets tend as a huge generalization to be fairly weak.

But in a 3-bet or 4-bet pot, the donk IME is freaking huge, and really polarizes a thinking players hand to nuts or air, and the rec player to having a monster, the only question at that point is what is a monster to that player.