yea i screwed thigns up as well. hahahah i edited first then remade the post and deleted it. i dont know if it will work.

I like your flat PF. Four-betting would only be good if you planned to call his shove. Four-bet/folding is kinda like turning your hand into a bluff, and a waste of QQ.

Flatting also has the benefit of keeping a lot of air in his range, as you say, "villain 3-bet very light".

OTF, I would check.

1. Villain has a lot of air in his range, so let him keep up his story by allowing him to c-bet and represent the ace.
2. Villain also has a bunch of aces in his range, so give him the chance to c-bet the value part of his range.

*Ninja Grunch* Let's hope this is not among Vil's usual 3bet light hand:

Obv we check to him OTF to allow him to cbet. On the off chance that he checks, we'll need to start getting money in OTT: probably a 2/3pot bet OTT would be standard, but I'd overbet ($80-90) OTT if Vil checked OTR; with your past history with Vil, he won't know where you're at with such a line.

The tough call for the Flop and River is if he makes a substantial cbet, is there any reason not to raise to get it all in ?

This obv depends upon whether or not a significant part of Vil's range is some sort of draw. With the rainbow flop, KJ, KT, JT are most of the drawing hands. I don't see many LLSNL vils that 3bet such hands pre, but you say he's good. So KJ, KT - types are very unlikely.

Are decent connectors the biggest part of his light 3b range, or are low cards more likely ?

im excited but i forgot what i wrote.

NG*

Like the preflop call with the 3rd best hand.

Boom, we hit our set on a drawing board. Only thing to figure is how to get the most value.

We can't count on getting paid here unless villain caught a good piece of this flop. Let's get AA out of the way right now as that will be a cooler and so be it. We are really wishing he holds AK - A9 or 9 9. Maybe J 10s is in his range also.

Checking here hoping for a bet leaves open the possiblity of the dreaded free card. With only straight draws possible and only J 10 with an open ender, I think a pot sized bet will chase them away as well as any other PP and all his air. I would bet around $65 which would leave villain with $170 behind if he calls and I would shove in response to a raise. We only fear an 8 or a K on the turn and the $65 bet prices that draw in. We now have a $205 pot with $170 behind with no problem getting it all in with 2 streets to go.

If we check and villain bets $65 or more, we are happy also but now any lead by us on a future street will look stronger to villain.

How about a shove on the flop? If villain will cal 25% of the time, we average $58.75 of his $235 stack every time we make this play. If villain calls $65 75% of the time, we average $48.75 of his $235 each time we make this play with the possibility of getting more on future streets.

I don't like the check raise here because it leaves open the option of not getting max value if he checks behind. So, I say bet 40-50 and try for three streets of value.

Of course you two seem to have a bunch of history, so it also depends on how he would perceive a lead vs a check. If he thinks a lead is always/usually strong, he might shut down, but if he thinks it might be weaker (or has AK, AQ, A9) he could he re-raise and you get full value on the flop.

I think a check raise screams monster here and he can probably get away from hands he might not otherwise, too. Check-calling might be ok, but the turn could be tricky. I think leading the turn, regardless, is probably the best here as you run in to problems trying to slowplay here (he can check behind or bet, and anything you do after a bet screams monster). Another problem is what happens if a picture comes on the turn? (you lead and he shoves). This could be a tough spot.

Don't get fancy, bet once, twice, three times and hope he sticks around (maybe c/r turn). You are hoping he has AK/AQ and tries to play a big pot, don't shoot yourself in the foot by killing a street of value.

Yea....my first post was a Ninja Grunch.....

Sparli, welcome to the family.

I think my post was pretty stupidly long and I probably babbled and didn't make sense. Oh well.

*NG*

I'm fine with the pre-flop play and I like the thought process that goes along with it. On the flop, I keep bouncing around between a bunch of different lines, but I think I prefer just leading out for 50-60 the most, and hoping he tries to raise you with AK or as a bluff. It would suck if he folded a hand he'd c-bet with, but I think overall you make the most on the hand by betting first. If he raises, it'd depend on the amount and possibly his demeanor, but I'd probably just ship it right then.

I'm also intrigued by doing something insane like open-shoving or trying to check-raise all-in, because he'd have to interpret that as a bluff, wouldn't he? He thinks you're LAGgy, he's probably got you on a pocket pair, and maybe he'd look you up with any A or KK?

It would be funny if Venice was just screwing with us and al our deleted responses are gone. Just to get us to write ninja a bunch if times.

Judo chop

So when are we popping the cheery on this one?

I would check call the flop and lead the turn and river. Certainly check the flop to collect a cbet from his bluffs. This should easily gets stacks in when he has a big ace, and if he's bluffing he could potentially pick up a draw on the turn and put more money in the pot. You could check the turn if you think he's likely to double barrel as a bluff, but I doubt that's the case.

Assuming he bets $50 on the flop, I would call making the pot $175. Lead the turn for half his remaining stack and shove the river.

Note: Is Villain EP? What is villains stack?

Starting now.

I like your thinking on why a 4-bet might be optimal, however I am having a hard time coming up with a 4-bet size that I don't feel pretty much committed to.

I take it we are calling a 5-bet AI every time too. So if that's the case what becomes a optimal 4-bet size, my knee jerk reaction was $135 total.

oh yea, im not folding. His perception of hero, our positions, his lagginess somewhat all spell he will shove AK IF we make the bet just right. I do not want him flatting my 4 bet. So $125-$135 seems really sweet. Any player that we have to place solely on AA KK if he 5 bets, well we are really in a tuff spot vs that player.

Having said that, any player with that tight a 5 bet range will for sure play pretty straitforward postflop if we had to flat OOP. That would be the type player who will never barrel 3 streets etc, so we could play somewhat reasonably oOP vs him.

i think villain's 3betting range is too wide to 4bet pre, given villain description. we just fold out most of his range that we beat. do we really expect him to 5bet shove light against us because of our image? i think his 5bet shoving range is narrow and i wouldn't be happy if we got 5bet and had to call. flatting a 3bet with QQ against a "very light" 3betting range from a post-flop aggressive villain captures a lot more value IMO.

post flop, i said lead $45, but a lot of the better posters said c/c flop. i'm finding it hard to decide which way extracts more value. if we lead, we get more value from villain's strong Ax, which he probably raises, but perhaps fold out some of his air or small PP that cbet. that being said, when he cbets those hands he probably doesn't double barrel with them too often if we c/c flop.

I think a reverse float line against this villain might be ideal. If we donk the turn, our bet looks less strong than normal because of our knowledge of V's range PF and OTF (and his knowledge of the same). It is more likely to make him spazz, IMO with a marginal holding, thinking we are FOS. If we size our bet properly, we can make him believe that he may have fold equity which we know he doesn't. If he calls, I lead for the rest of my stack OTR.

Mayhaps I am leveling myself

I think I still like flatting pre here.

But I said c/c flop then shove turn let me clarify.

If the turn is a some sort of draw card ie a flush etc I think I shove...

If the turn card is a blank I c/c c/shove and depending on sizing I like a shove as any bet on turn commits villian ...so obviously our shove is called a good %.

If its checked through I think value betting river is way strong from villians perspective so an open shove on river really isn't bad and I like it mucho especially since any cbet on flop and our shove gives him decent enough ratio to call.

Group think thwarted!



I LIAAKE!

Ninja:
Against a player i have a lot of meta game history with, i might suggest taking a really non-standard line i.e. over betting pot to 90/100, if called either jamming or (!!!) checking turn (flatting bet) w/ intent to jam river. This is such a WA/WB that free cards cant hurt us really.

However, standard line against aggro post flop play I'd lead 50 w/ the intent on flatting raise and get money in on turn.

As for PF:
The fact you have some meta history, i'd be willing to get it in w/ QQ here - are you absolutely sure his shoves are always AA/KK?

Success?

...cont'd

Flop: AhQd9c
$75 (2 Players) Hero checks, Villain checks (!?!)

- either Villain missed completely and was FOS, is scared of my PF call and/or has kings, jacks, tens, KJ, etc. OR he's checking behind with aces, AQ, AK (JT maybe)

- u'd think he'd cbet with most of his air and one pair hands (but who knows?)

- something that I should have added to my OP (but it was too late as the 'grunching' had began) was that 2 weeks ago I 3bet him from the SB w/AA and checked a set on the flop, bet turn, shoved river and he leveled himself into calling w/KK (unimproved) so he may be being cautious

- also note that villain is a friend of mine and I may have been too complimentary of him in my OP... saying that he 'often out plays me' was a lie as it rarely happens! also, '3bets light' should read '3bet monkey as of late' and to be honest I'm not totally sure if he knows why he does it or if he picks his spots correctly (although it does garner him quite an image.)

Turn: 7x
$75 (2 Players) Hero? [~$235 behind]

...btw: great responses everyone! I think we should just keep it open from this point (as in no more 'Ninja Grunching' BUT 'Regular Grunching' would probably be cool!) just title ur following posts *Grunch* (if u actually do so.)

kudos to venice (and the other mods) for bringing this to our forum!

In That case For the sake of history I check turn again...sounds tough...but we should look weak now and he should be value betting most of his hands here as we should be checking here with lesser pairs more often.

I probably c/c as c/r would be too obvious as he might be suspicous already. Then try my best to get it in on river...maybe open jam

seems pretty obvious he has TT JJ air etc and we will only get one solid bet if that. These spots such as this where villain decides to slow down due to flop is again a great reason for the 4 bet pre. He would not laydown JJ TT at all pre i assume, but now the flop comes ugly he is just about giving up.

I check turn, and maybe try to feign that i have a low PP and pot the river trying to get one desperate hero call out of TT. We can always get lucky and have villain catch up by binking a lower set on turn or river too.

*Grunch*

Either he is checking behind with an ace for pot control (or to induce a bet from a worse hand from you), or he's not willing to try to bluff you off your hand. Now you have to just bet pot here and shove river and hope he calls you down with an ace. I don't think we should put too much stock in the history. Villain is just as likely as not to think "this is the same line he took last time, it must be a bluff this time!" and level himself. I'm still not worried about AA; if he has that it's a cooler.