Tom Westman commands more respect than Rob (Ian literally stepped down and let him have the victory). Has many of the same positives. I don't think he needs to sit next to a goat as much. I would have liked to see an FTC between Ian and Tom. I suspect he's a bit too rigid, but he inspires a lot of loyalty.

Heidik needs to sit next to a goat even more so than Rob. He barely eeked out a 4-3 win over one of the biggest goats of all time. But he was great at maneuvering through the game (Thailand cast was a big fail strategy-wise--as usual. Bigger fail than usual from a like-ability angle.). I'd expect him to make FTC a very high percentage of time. I'd expect him to get there dragging a goat. This is all provided the season was blind...if people know him going in, I doubt he does as well. Great player...it galls me to say it. I wish him ill. It also galls me to say that. I can't help it.

JT has camp skills and challenge skills. I doubt he's as valuable as Rob in either case. But JT 1.0 had some sort of magical ability to make people fall in love with him and want to work with him. I still think he needed Stephen to help him think and negotiate his way through the game, but he also swept Stephen which I thought was pretty impressive. Definitely doesn't need to sit next to a goat.

Yul also commands a lot of respect and loyalty. Beat Ozzy at FTC after Ozzy had beasted the seasons challenges. Definitely doesn't need to sit next to a goat. Win tarnished by the too powerful immunity idol, but the guy was very good at reading people and dealing with them on their level.

Guys like Todd and Rob C are not as valuable for camp life and challenges, but also aren't nearly as threatening in their appearance. They aren't blazing targets like the others. They are more flexible and have more options. They play a lower key, sneakier-type game. I prefer them. (The good women players go the sneaky route.) They are all good at reading people and subtly manipulating people to do the things they want.

Sigh, I told myself I'd stop reading/responding itt because far too many things just tilt me too hard but alas just couldn't help myself.

Ok, whatever, I'll concede that he didn't win. But exactly wtf is your definition of "crushing" a season if you don't view what BRob did in ASS as crushing?!?! He arrives on the beach and immediately assumes the head position of Chapera. First vote he immediately gets rid of one of the few people on the island who could rival him on a strategic level. Sets up their camp and bosses the challenges for Chapera. Keeps his tribe strong and together all the way through the game and calls the shot as to who is going home at EVERY stage of the game. Takes himself AND his gf to the end.

You must be straight up ******ed for trying to compare Lex's move with what Erick, James, etc. did. It was a calculated risk that simply didn't work out for him, sometimes such risks work out on survivor sometimes they don't (Erick and James' moves weren't calculated risks, they were flat out idiocy). I also love how you just naturally have it as a fact that Big Tom would have immediately jumped on over with Lex and their plan would have been to pagong Chapera and they would have successfully accomplished that all the way down to Rob. As has been said by almost every single intelligent Survivor who has won or done well, situational luck is a MAJOR part of survivor, and while you obv cannot control everything, you have to put yourself in good positions constantly so that when things fall your way you can make the most of them (kind of like a tournament in poker). Give me any survivor who in your definition "crushed" and I'll be happy to rattle off several instances of situational luck that enabled them to do well (actually I probably won't because I don't want to waste my time but you get the gist).

I won't even bother addressing the last paragraph.

I don't think I've ever seen Yul take any heat for only beating Ozzy by one vote, considering how highly and lowly regarded their respective social games are generally considered.

Awesome clip. Such a great play to secure Troyzan's vote by showing him respect even though he's next to go. So incredibly strong. My support for Parv as GOAT woman is now officially wavering

Also she played the TC perfectly. She let the other women alienate Troyzan (a very likely loud voice at Ponderosa) and irritate the jury by playing the bully. She and then just threw out a single quiet/non-cocky observation to make the bottom of the alliance think twice about flipping. She is like a freaking cyborg.

I also think she might be doing something on the sly with Tarzan. Am I mistaken, or has he voted with Kim every TC since the merge?

She still has to fade a bitter jury. Particularly Jay, Mike, and possibly Alicia have the look/feel of butthurt, but I do think she's probably good with Troyzan and Jonas.

Troyzan obviously made a mistake being cocky after winning the II, but I actually think he did a pretty good job of trying to cause a flip. Although it was a huge mistake to target Kim directly at the TC, giving her a chance to play an idol.

Pretty good episode for basically what was a pagonging. Troyzan was great casting IMO.

Alicia is going to have a cringe-inducing FTC question, ainec.

Awesome podcast, thanks man !

Definitively changed how I viewed his game (which was still very good nonetheless, but hearing his reasoning for certains moves, plus moves they didn't show in the edit was pretty awesome)

Kim, Sabrina, Kat saying at TC that no one knows the picking order within the female alliance.

EDIT: I don't think this was it after more thinking, but leaving it in there.

He did take it a bit too personal and went too far, but I actually think that's good for him, even if he wasn't thinking that. A couple episodes ago everyone was like we can't take Troyzan to the end because he will win. He needs some enemies. Sabrina & Chelsea hurt themselves the most now because Troy will def vote for Kim over them. I understand why they did what they did though.

And after seeing the way Jay and Jonas were smiling at Troy and laughing with him I think Jay would vote Troy over Chelsea now. Jay seemed hurt by the betrayal.

Totally agree. Just listened. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

BRob in Marquesas was my favorite version on BRob. I thought that was his most entertaining season. He had a couple of moments in RI, but he was too humble because he's older, has kids, yadda yadda

Soncy - interesting you didn't have a single woman in your list. Any reason for that?

I don't think boring is quite the right word. Tedious is more like it.

I'd say it was Chelsea, Sab, and to a lesser extent, Kim arguing with Troy at TC. IMO, you never want to engage in an argument with a scrambling crazy guy in front of the jury, particularly when that jury is 3, and soon to be 4, men. This even extends back to the challenge and camp. When some is digging their own grave with their behavior, let them. By attacking you create sympathy, which increases the chance of a flip and helps with the jury if he makes FTC.

lol@people who keep telling us Boston Rob didn't win All-Stars. HE MARRIED THE SUPERMODEL AND GOT THE MILLION. Who cares about game victories?? It's a total life victory. As Survivor is a life game, it's a total win.

Oh, and for those wondering? Yes, Elisabeth totally won season 2 and Heidi won season 6. BROADEN YOUR MINDS!

so I guess Stephenie won her season too since she also married a baseball player.

Ozzy absolutely beasted the challenges that season. Lots of people think that is important, and I think it was during a time when people thought it was more important than they do today. You need some reason for the other players to respect and have positive feelings about you. If it's not because you are a personable cat who they enjoyed to be around, you need some other reason. Ozzy has those. Clay had no redeemable qualities. The fans are never voting Clay as the fan favorite. You could put Clay in a group consisting of Shambo, Denise the lunch lady, Twila, Ben the racist, Survivor Shannon, Naonka, Colton, etc. and he'd never sniff fan favorite. LOL at suggesting Ozzy is goat if he's sitting at FTC. He is capable of providing for his tribe and helping them win challenges. He's been in multiple Survivor alliances. Amanda seemed to like him well enough. He's won fan favorite. His social game might be his Achilles Heel, but it's a heel ffs. Are you aware of the rest of Achilles?

Women suck at Survivor. JK. I was focusing a little more on the players who I consider more similar to BRob. More physical alpha types who share the provider/leader qualities. I mentioned Todd and Rob C at the end and lumped the good women together in that paragraph, partly because I think their strengths are more to the cerebral side and they differ from Rob in how they go about things. They manipulate subtly, while Rob is far more overt in the fact that he is in control of things. Players like Cirie, Parv, and Kim control behind the scenes. Then, there are players like Sophie, Sandra, maybe Jenna and Danni who capatilized on opportunities in their respective seasons. I don't think the good women challenge competitors like Parv, Kim, Sophie, Danni, Stephenie, get much team credit for their abilities like the men do. They don't stand out during challenges where you have to lug giant things around an obstacle course, but the men I think are building up respect points during the early challenges.

It's like comparing apples and oranges.

edit: I'd also put Stephen in that group with Rob C and Todd and some of these women. These people have to make it seem like what they want is in everyone else's best interests while the tribe doesn't look to them as 'the leader'.

Would you put Kenny from Gabon in that same camp as those listed?

Soncy for GOAT survivor thread poster? <3

One trait not mentioned in the discussion about what makes a great Survivor contestant and how you rank them is authenticity. One of the things that made Boston Rob great at Survivor was that he was authentic in his interactions with others, his efforts to help the tribe, and the decisions he made in the game. He built real rapport with the others in the game and even if he was stabbing you in the back, he was clear about why (to further himself in the game), he was unapologetic for it, but not unfeeling about the impact it had on the players who were effected.

If we think about other winners, my initial theory (and it's not well thought out) is that authenticity plays a big part in who the jury is willing to give $1M to. Looking to last season, I could make a real argument that Sophie won because she was the most authentic. Albert was perceived as a smarmy player who would do/say anything to advance himself in the game (lol that he's actually a dating coach). Coach, while preaching honor, respect, etc... still had to play without honor, and his defense of that was pathetic, pandering and really came across as inauthentic. Sophie, even though she rubbed some people the wrong way and was considered condescending, was true to herself and had a truly authentic reaction to the criticism she received at FTC for her behavior. I think this stuff really matters.

There have been truly authentic players who didn't win. Russell was without question true to himself throughout the game but he was such a vile jerk to everybody else, including his answers at FTC, that there was no way he could win. I believe that he could have won with a different FTC approach, but it is possible that he wouldn't have been able to do it with any authenticity, thus not gaining a whole lot of ground.

I still need to think about this with respect to other winners, but my gut says this is a pretty big key to winning at FTC. For the record, I think Kim is doing well on this front.

ha, actually it was a lack of authenticity in his original game that has me ranking brob a bit lower then the others. I mean, obv Brian didn't have it but being a sociopath works!

so, yea, I agree with you for sure.

more like a "baseball player". It's like marrying a kicker. Kendrick isn't exactly Cole Hamels.

Russell probably doesn't have it in him to be a slightly kind human being. His goose was cooked long before FTC, just like most contestants who lose in the end. Contestants formulate opinions and build relationships with the people at FTC over the course of days, many times weeks, and 2 or 3 hours of questioning is seldom going to change what the jury felt going in. The small things matter and they matter a ton. Answering a question "correctly" at the end is very rarely going to make up for someone who feels like you didn't give a poop about them. I think you are quite obviously on the right track when you talk about being genuine or authentic as you call it. Take the time to get to know other players, be interested in who they are and not just how they can further you in the game(not that the latter isn't VERY important). It will pay dividends in the end.

John Carroll and Brenda say hi. I was never impressed with Kenny. He doesn't have the social skills to be a top survivor player.

I think authenticity is a very important Survivor skill as well, and one I hadn't thought of before. Chase and Fabio fared much better than Sash because they were deemed more authentic. Sugar is another one who lacked authenticity and got killed at FTC.

Brian and Chris were two who may have bamboozled the jury on the topic of authenticity, but they were both up against massive goats. But it's sort of interesting, because I would say Twila and Helen were very authentic.

Jeff Varner belongs in that camp way before John Carroll. John wanted to stand on the rooftops and yell he was the leader. He wanted the glory for sure and there was nothing subtle about his game. I think the same is true of Brenda but perhaps not to the same extent. Sash was more of the quiet sneaky type that season i'd say. I guess if i had to pick someone from Marquesas embodying those characteristics i'd say it was Tammy.

I think you can call Troyzan a good individual player, but I don't think you can call him good at Survivor. He can't generate an alliance or strategy for one to save his life. I think he has a relatively good sense of the game, but his nature and tendency is to play it alone. This never works. If there is a flip, it will be driven by someone else with him as a part of it. He tried last TC, but couldn't even get the men in line. Every time his alliance has come to a crossroads, he has allowed them to go down the wrong path, perhaps starting with the first time men went to immunity. If there was one guy who might have been able to pull the men together early, it was him but decided to float instead and now he's on an island.

That being said, I'm also a fan. Maybe it's because I'm also 50 (hate to admit that) but can (and do) still play with the 30 year olds. I actually think he could go on a sick immunity run. I want to believe his ranting last episode was strategic - he is trying to make himself less of a threat by being a jerk and thus make it easier to get some people to flip with him. But, there is no evidence of that, so I have to credit it to him just being an emotional guy. The show is more interesting with him around.