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When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children?

03-07-2014 , 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
I'm assuming from this that you think I'm not leading by example but I'm uncertain why, can you elaborate? I'm not sure how one can arrive at the conclusion that critical thinking is desirable without having engaged in critical thinking, so is that not the example I'm setting?

Did you miss this post... (wrt to ignoring 'the relevance for a minute the age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales')
I don't see much evidence of what I consider to be critical thinking. I think your ability to dismiss new information, adjusting your position only enough to accommodate it, inconsistent with someone who is thinking critically. I think your ability to hold a position while almost everyone disputes it also inconsistent as someone thinking critically is more likely to consider that they, rather than everyone else, is wrong.

I was asked at age 9 in 1978 what party I would vote for in the up coming general election. I remember being asked and, to my shame, I remember my answer. I don't think it was evidence of me thinking critically I do know when I was arrested at age 8 I knew what I was doing I also knew I'd done wrong before it being explained to me.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dereds
I don't see much evidence of what I consider to be critical thinking. I think your ability to dismiss new information, adjusting your position only enough to accommodate it, inconsistent with someone who is thinking critically.
I've readily admitted to my kids that I'm as susceptible to biases as anyone else but that I'm aware of some of them and try to overcome them. I think that in itself is setting a good example.

My favourite quote at the moment is 'when in doubt, gather more data'. I think that's a great concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I think your ability to hold a position while almost everyone disputes it also inconsistent as someone thinking critically is more likely to consider that they, rather than everyone else, is wrong.
Of course I consider that I might be wrong, but I think this claim is a bit too general and non-specific to really mean anything because you don't know me IRL, you have a very small sample set in very limited context, and you have no idea how many posts I haven't made because doubts I have. I've been in the minority lots of times in my life and been proven right but I don't assume that means that I'm always right anymore than I assume that it should mean that I'm wrong if 'most' people disagree with me.

The context, the nature of the discussion, the number of people disagreeing with me and more importantly, their knowledge and the caliber of their intellect are all factors I take into account. I've got quite good at asking myself 'is it me?'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I was asked at age 9 in 1978 what party I would vote for in the up coming general election. I remember being asked and, to my shame, I remember my answer. I don't think it was evidence of me thinking critically I do know when I was arrested at age 8 I knew what I was doing I also knew I'd done wrong before it being explained to me.
Do you think 10 year olds should be given the vote and that adults should be allowed to influence their political views (i.e. tell them what is right and what is wrong)? If not, why not?

(This may seem like a leading question and to a point it is, because I think I've described the situation that occurs with religion and that I'm pointing out that the same behavior in a different context might be considered unacceptable.)
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 08:40 AM
I'm speaking to the evidence I have available over a couple of thousand posts over 18 months or so, yeah it's a limited sample and I don't know you in person but it seems strange that someone who, I believe, demonstrates a lack of critical thinking here is a paragon of it elsewhere.

I don't think 10 year olds should vote though I'd be okay with reducing the age from 18.

As for whether I think adults should be allowed to influence kids views I don't know what you mean by allow. Consider the alternative how do you disallow a parent from telling their kids that there is a God or that David Cameron is a good PM, or that they should do their homework?
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I'm speaking to the evidence I have available over a couple of thousand posts over 18 months or so, yeah it's a limited sample and I don't know you in person but it seems strange that someone who, I believe, demonstrates a lack of critical thinking here is a paragon of it elsewhere.
So the two (somewhat extreme) options are 'lack of critical thinking here' and 'paragon of it elsewhere'? ... At least I've learned to recognise a false dichotomy (also known as the either-or fallacy, either-or reasoning, fallacy of false choice, fallacy of false alternatives, black-and-white thinking, the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, bifurcation, excluded middle, no middle ground, polarization) since I started posting here.

You have failed to recognise that I'm capable of critical thinking. I suspect that you're guilty of confirmation bias here.

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Originally Posted by dereds
I don't think 10 year olds should vote though I'd be okay with reducing the age from 18.
Why shouldn't 10 year olds vote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
As for whether I think adults should be allowed to influence kids views I don't know what you mean by allow. Consider the alternative how do you disallow a parent from telling their kids that there is a God or that David Cameron is a good PM, or that they should do their homework?
I retract the word 'allow, and substitute 'should it be considered acceptable'. It's not really a question of 'disallowing' it, since that wouldn't ever be possible I suspect. It's more an issue of highlighting that a type of behaviour is acceptable in one context and not in another, and I think that there's a double standard there.

Let me ask the question in a more direct way, do you think it acceptable for a parent to urge on a young child (under the age of 10 for example) a particular political philosophy as being 'right' where all others are wrong?
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 10:25 AM
How often do posters you respect agree with you?

I am subject to confirmation and expectation bias, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. It may be I've failed to recognise it because it hasn't been particularly clear.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dereds
How often do posters you respect agree with you?
Often. Those would be one of the types of threads that I tend not to get involved in that I mentioned earlier. If Zumby or Orp, for example, have made a post I agree with, or that supports a position that I hold, I generally don't think I'd be able to add anything useful so I stay out of it. I usually only post when I disagree with something, that's useful to me, agreeing isn't.

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Originally Posted by dereds
I am subject to confirmation and expectation bias, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. It may be I've failed to recognise it because it hasn't been particularly clear.
There's an awful lot of criticising me going on in this exchange and very little of you answering the questions I've asked you. If you're not interested in answering the questions and actually discussing the topic (instead of you attacking my 'critical thinking' stance by trying to prove that I'm not doing as I say) then perhaps you might just keep your criticisms to yourself because the balance is somewhat skewed and that's not very helpful. You think I'm guilty of mostly not thinking critically. Noted.

If you are interested in answering my questions, these are the ones I'd be interested to hear your opinion on:

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Why [do you think that] shouldn't 10 year olds vote?
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Let me ask the question in a more direct way, do you think it acceptable for a parent to urge on a young child (under the age of 10 for example) a particular political philosophy as being 'right' where all others are wrong?
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:00 PM
Because you make claims regarding critical thinking and I think there's either a disconnect between how you post here and how your critical thinking manifests elsewhere or what you think critical thinking is and what I do.

I also didn't ask how often you agreed with posters you respect I asked how often they agreed with you. It's kinda easy to read what the smart posters here post and think yeah that's right, that may support your judgement but it doesn't support your claims to thinking critically. How often you construct an argument that gets the support of those posters may do.

I don't think those questions are particularly interesting. However, I don't think 10 year olds are mature enough to vote though I'm open to it being reduced to 16. I don't have a problem with a parent telling their kids that certain beliefs are right or wrong, dependent on the belief.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I don't think 10 year olds are mature enough to vote though I'm open to it being reduced to 16. I don't have a problem with a parent telling their kids that certain beliefs are right or wrong, dependent on the belief.
So I could tell my 10 year old that the Conservatives are the best party, that they're 'right' and that anyone who disagrees is is wrong and that they should become life long supporters of the Conservative party, but if they then tell you what I've just taught them to believe, you'd think that they're not mature enough to have that opinion? What make a child mature enough to hold such views, what are you looking for?

Or, you say that it's 'dependent on the belief'. What types of belief would be ok for a parent to convince their child of, and which ones wouldn't be ok?
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by neeeel
so is your face
That's just rude. You don't know if he is ugly.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
So I could tell my 10 year old that the Conservatives are the best party, that they're 'right' and that anyone who disagrees is is wrong and that they should become life long supporters of the Conservative party, but if they then tell you what I've just taught them to believe, you'd think that they're not mature enough to have that opinion? What make a child mature enough to hold such views, what are you looking for?

Or, you say that it's 'dependent on the belief'. What types of belief would be ok for a parent to convince their child of, and which ones wouldn't be ok?
I'm not looking for anything, I'm alright with you as a parent saying that despite me thinking you're wrong and I'm okay with the kid not being able to act on it till they are older.

I was delivering leaflets in the 1983 election fwiw I was 13.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
So I could tell my 10 year old that the Conservatives are the best party, that they're 'right' and that anyone who disagrees is is wrong and that they should become life long supporters of the Conservative party, but if they then tell you what I've just taught them to believe, you'd think that they're not mature enough to have that opinion? What make a child mature enough to hold such views, what are you looking for?

Or, you say that it's 'dependent on the belief'. What types of belief would be ok for a parent to convince their child of, and which ones wouldn't be ok?
There are other ways of teaching somebody what is right.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I'm not looking for anything,
I think at least that you must be looking for 'maturity' since you said "I don't think 10 year olds are mature enough to vote". So what in your view makes a child 'mature' enough to hold a view on which political party they should affiliate themselves with? How are you identifying their level of 'maturity', or 'immaturity'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I'm alright with you as a parent saying that despite me thinking you're wrong and I'm okay with the kid not being able to act on it till they are older.
To clarify, you're 'alright' with me urging on a child a belief that you don't think that they're mature enough to act on?
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
To clarify, you're 'alright' with me urging on a child a belief that you don't think that they're mature enough to act on?
Parents try to teach their children concepts like "share" and "don't hit" far before the children are mature enough to make the connection to such concepts. Implicitly, those concepts are loaded with beliefs like "sharing is good" and "hitting is bad."
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
I think at least that you must be looking for 'maturity' since you said "I don't think 10 year olds are mature enough to vote". So what in your view makes a child 'mature' enough to hold a view on which political party they should affiliate themselves with? How are you identifying their level of 'maturity', or 'immaturity'?

To clarify, you're 'alright' with me urging on a child a belief that you don't think that they're mature enough to act on?
You urge on them the belief they should do there homework.

But you don't you don't make them believe they should do their homework you just make them do it.

Any age I give is going to be arbitrary and I'm waiting for you to tell me I don't understand because I'm not a parent, I'm not interested in your parenting I'm interested in whether you are consistent or display critical thinking and I've insufficient evidence to suggest you are/do either.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I don't think those questions are particularly interesting. However, I don't think 10 year olds are mature enough to vote though I'm open to it being reduced to 16. I don't have a problem with a parent telling their kids that certain beliefs are right or wrong, dependent on the belief.
Increasingly, 21-24 year olds aren't mature enough to vote.

Last edited by Aaron W.; 03-07-2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: That must mean I'm getting old... GET OFF MY LAWN!
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 01:01 PM
I could make some comment about it being adults that elected Reagan and Thatcher and we should probably give the 10-16's a chance.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
You urge on them the belief they should do there homework.

But you don't you don't make them believe they should do their homework you just make them do it.

Any age I give is going to be arbitrary and I'm waiting for you to tell me I don't understand because I'm not a parent, I'm not interested in your parenting I'm interested in whether you are consistent or display critical thinking and I've insufficient evidence to suggest you are/do either.
I'm not asking for an age, I'm not interested in whether or not you're a parent and you're consistently failing to answer what I think are quite clear and straightforward questions.

We've established that you're looking for a maturity and that there's some relationship for you between the child's age, what a child has been told to believe and them acting on that belief, but I'm not getting anywhere trying to explore your views on those claims. Am I asking the wrong questions? Can you answer the ones below?

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I think at least that you must be looking for 'maturity' since you said "I don't think 10 year olds are mature enough to vote". So what in your view makes a child 'mature' enough to hold a view on which political party they should affiliate themselves with? How are you identifying their level of 'maturity', or 'immaturity'?

To clarify, you're 'alright' with me urging on a child a belief that you don't think that they're mature enough to act on?
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

"Critical thinking is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, partially true, or false"
Exactly what I'm doing, with you, right now.
Wow... that's an awful and grotesquely incomplete definition. It's a good thing that that's only the first sentence of a long article, and that your usage of it demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

I can look at a person and conclude he's not trustworthy based on the color of his skin. I've decided my claim about him is absolutely true, and by this "definition" that counts as critical thinking. I have "a" way of deciding the truth value of my claim.

Last edited by Aaron W.; 03-07-2014 at 01:08 PM. Reason: You ninja-edited it out, but I'm leaving my response anyway.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 01:15 PM
I think you're asking the wrong questions. The premise

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and that there's some relationship for you between the child's age, what a child has been told to believe and them acting on that belief,
is wrong, I'm okay with kids being politically active much earlier than I think they should vote, it's not that I think their immaturity precludes their involvement only that I don't think we should be bound by them. Also kids are really different and progress at different ages.

I acted on my beliefs when I put leaflets through letterboxes that's not the same as being allowed to vote.
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:00 PM
And for the second question yes I'm good with urging on kids the importance of doing their homework even when they are too immature to know why
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
It's a fine line but I think that the word 'teaching' has implications of 'authority', that I would need to be an authority on the subject of Critical thinking to teach it. I'm not an authority.
So all teachers have to be an authority ( whatever that means) on any subject they teach?

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'Encouraging' is a word that I think allows me to introduce a concept without being an authority, for example, I could encourage a drug addict to give up their addiction but I couldn't teach them how to do, I don't have the required knowledge. It's not a great example because it implies that not being addicted is preferred state and that's a subjective value of my own. Critical thinking is a tool that allows people to choose their own preferred value, it's not passing on your own to them. Most people simply do it anyway.
This just seems like a fudge, to allow you to avoid the word teach.

plus "choosing their own preferred value" has no value if you dont actually let them choose it?

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And if they told you that they believed in God? What would your impression be?
I was being a bit facetious
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:19 PM
I'm not sure critical thinking is a tool by which people can choose their own preferred value
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
I'm not sure critical thinking is a tool by which people can choose their own preferred value
Well, Im still not entirely sure what critical thinking actually is, whether everyone in the thread is meaning the same thing, and how you would go about teaching such a thing, so I would kind of agree with you
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:22 PM
Yeah nor me
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:45 PM
In the wiki article linked by MB it suggests CT a tool by which people can come to reasoned conclusions based on a reasoned process which really isn't the same
When Should A Religious Belief Become Too Dangerous To Legally Teach To Children? Quote

      
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