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What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism.

04-11-2013 , 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
By killing religion you will destroy Atheism itself, which will open the door for new radical and dangerous new ideologies !
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:09 AM
About Sam Harris’ claim that science can answer moral questions
The buzz in secular circles lately has been about a TED talk by Sam Harris, the author of The End of Faith, and Letter to a Christian Nation. The title of Harris’ talk is “Science can answer moral questions,” and you just know that as a former scientist and currently a philosopher, I simply have to comment on it. As it turns out, there is much that Harris and I agree on, but I think his main target is actually moral relativism, and that he would get more mileage out of allying himself with philosophy (not to the exclusion of science), rather than taking what appears to be the same misguided scientistic attitude that Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne have come to embody so well. But let us start with a summary of Harris’ arguments, with extensive quotations from the lecture, proceeding then to my commentary.
Harris begins with a rather startling claim: “The separation between science and human values is an illusion,” adding “facts and values seem to belong to different spheres [but] This is quite clearly untrue. Values are a certain kind of facts. They are facts about the well beings of conscious creatures.” This is a frontal assault on what in philosophy is known as the naturalistic fallacy, the idea — introduced by David Hume — that one cannot directly derive values (what ought to be) from facts (what is). As Hume famously put it in A Treatise of Human Nature:
“In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark’d, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when all of a sudden I am surpriz’d to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, ‘tis necessary that it shou’d be observ’d and explain’d; and at the same time that a reason should be given; for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it.”
Harris justifies his position by asking his audience to consider under what circumstances we feel that we have moral obligations: “Why is it that we don’t have ethical obligations toward rocks? ... Because we don’t think that rocks can suffer. ... [talking then about insects having a very limited inner life] This is a factual claim, this is something we could be right or wrong about.” He continues: “If culture changes us, it changes us by changing our brains. And therefore whatever cultural variation there is in the way human beings flourish can at least in principle be understood in the context of a maturing science of the mind,” implying that neurobiology — the field in which he is getting a doctoral degree — will soon be the key to moral discourse.
Harris then introduces the idea of a “moral landscape” describing the sort of ethical decisions that further or hinder human wellbeing, and just couldn’t help himself sneaking in some mystical fluff (he has a weak spot for Buddhism and transcendental meditation), suggesting that perhaps one way to access the structure of the moral landscape is by way of mystical experiences. Whatever.
The talk at this point takes a sharp turn, where Harris aims his fire at moral relativism, though he never actually mentions the term: “Just admitting that there are right and wrong answers to the question of how humans flourish will change the way we talk about morality.” Taking the example of several States in the US that allow corporal punishment of children, he asks: “Is it a good idea, generally speaking, to subject children to pain, and violence, and public humiliation as a way of encouraging healthy emotional development and good behavior?”

He then makes an analogy between human flourishing and physical health to show that though both are complex and varied, we can still make sense of the idea of “health” and act on it. Harris also makes the point that even if it turns out that there are “many peaks on the moral landscape,” i.e. many ways to flourish, this doesn't undermine the idea of an objective assessment of moral claims.
Another example Harris introduces is that of Muslim women who have to cover their body completely so as not to offend their alleged god, regarding which Harris rhetorically comments that “it is the position, generally speaking, of our intellectual community, that we might not like this ... [but] who are we to say that the proud denizens of an ancient culture are wrong to force their wives and daughters to live in cloth bags?” As he correctly points out, we do in fact know a lot about human wellbeing and how it is affected by repressive cultural practices, so that we can indeed be judgmental about such practices.
The final argument of the talk is supposed to reinforce the analogy between moral and scientific expertise, both of which are non-arbitrary: “Most Western intellectuals ... say, well, there is nothing for the Dalai Lama to be really right about or for [serial rapist and killer] Ted Bundy to be really wrong about. ... [One] likes chocolate, [the other] likes vanilla. ... Notice that we don't do this in science,” at which point Harris proceeds to compare differences of opinions about an expert in string theory and himself, claiming that the expert gets the right of way qua expert. “This is just the point, ok, whenever we are talking about facts, certain opinions must be excluded. ... How have we convinced ourselves that in the moral sphere there is no such thing as moral expertise?”
Let me start my commentary by pointing out that I do agree with Harris’ criticism of moral relativism, for much the same reasons that he advances. However, Harris must be living in a semi-parallel universe if he is convinced that “most Western intellectuals” have no problem with burkas, female genital mutilation, beheadings of “blasphemers” and the like. Perhaps a small number of hyper-politically correct and culturally neutral postmodern cuckoos do subscribe to that notion, but it is hardly “the position, generally speaking, of our intellectual community.”

The analogy between physical health and wellbeing, or flourishing (a term borrowed from the philosophical tradition of virtue ethics, which traces back to Aristotle) is convincing, but not new: it is exactly the way neo-Aristotelian philosophers defend the idea that although the notion of flourishing is complex and multifarious, it is not in fact either arbitrary or useless. The same goes for Harris’ argument that even if there are multiple peaks on the “moral landscape” that does not preclude developing an objective notion of morality. Again, this is an argument well known in moral philosophy.
Where I begin to diverge from Harris is when he talks about moral propositions as a particular kind of empirical facts. First off, as I pointed out before on this blog, to say that something is objectively true is not the same as to say that it is a fact, an equivalence strangely implied by Harris’ talk. There clearly are notions that are objectively true — such as mathematical theorems — but that in no meaningful sense are “facts.” Also, for a notion to be objectively true does not mean that said notion is also universal: morality applies only to human beings and other relevantly self-aware social beings, not to rocks, plants, ants, or other solar systems (unless they are inhabited by self-aware social beings), although on this latter point Harris seems to agree with me.
Let us also set aside another often controversial point in these debates: that of the role of emotions in ethical judgment. As Hume famously pointed out in his Treatise of Human Nature, “It is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger,” meaning that no matter what logic tells us, we are motivated to act only if we are endowed with certain emotional reactions against, say, injustice. These emotions are a complex result of our evolutionary history and our cultural evolution, but they do not enter into the picture sketched by Harris, so we will just mention the issue and move on.
The crux of the disagreement, then, is embodied in the title of Harris' talk: in what sense can science answer (as opposed to inform) ethical questions? Let me take one of Harris’ examples, the (highly questionable) legality of corporal punishment of children in several US States. Harris rhetorically asks whether we really think that hitting children will improve their school performance or good behavior. But that isn’t the point at all. What if it did? What if a scientific study showed that indeed, hitting children does have a measurable effect on improving those desirable traits? Harris would then have to concede that corporal punishment is moral, but somehow I doubt he would. And I certainly wouldn’t, because my moral intuition (yes, that’s what I’m going to call it, deal with it) tells me that purposefully inflicting pain on children is wrong, regardless of whatever the empirical evidence says.
We can now turn to the wearing of burkas, another issue where Harris and I agree on the substance (it is wrong to force women to “live in cloth bags”), but for different reasons. My position is that I think it immoral for a society to impose that degree of restriction on individual choices (a restriction that, as Harris points out, is backed up by the threat of force and even of capital punishment). That is because as a philosopher inclined towards virtue ethics I think individual and societal flourishing ought to be interconnected in a positive way, not in the negative one implemented in so many Muslim societies.
But Harris has to justify why he poses individual women’s wellbeing ahead of societal wellbeing, or even of the wellbeing of the families (and especially the males) of those women. Again, what if an empirical study were to show that — on balance — societies with restrictive rules about women’s attire and behavior flourish better, qua societies, than their more liberal counterparts in the West? Would that make forcing women to wear burkas morally right? I don’t think so.
These examples could be joined by many others making the same point: if we let empirical facts decide what is right and what is wrong, then new scientific findings may very well “demonstrate” that things like slavery, corporal punishment, repression of gays, limited freedom of women, and so on, are “better” and therefore more moral than liberal-progressive types such as Harris and myself would be ready to concede. The difference is that I wouldn’t have a problem rejecting such findings — just as I don’t have a problem condemning social Darwinism and eugenics — but Harris would find himself in a bind. Indeed, he seems to be making a categorical mistake: what he calls values are instead empirical facts about how to achieve human wellbeing. But why value individual human wellbeing, or the wellbeing of self-aware organisms, to begin with? Facts are irrelevant to that question.
Of course, I am in complete agreement that our sense of morality is an instinct that derives from our biological history, and that our moral reasoning is carried out by certain areas of the brain. But neither of these conclusions make evolutionary biology or neurobiology arbiters of moral decision making. Of course we do moral reasoning with the brain, just like we solve mathematical problems with the brain. Is Harris going to suggest that neurobiology will supersede mathematics? Of course our basic sense of morality has its roots in having evolved as social primates, but so do xenophobia, homophobia, and a bunch of other human characteristics that are not moral and that we don’t want to encourage.
So, how do we ground moral reasoning? This is the province of a whole area of inquiry known as metaethics, and I suggest that Harris would benefit from reading about it. Ultimately, ethics is a way of thinking about the human (and other relevantly similar organisms) condition. Just as we don’t need a good answer to the question of where mathematics comes from to engage in mathematical reasoning, so it is not very productive to keep asking philosophers for “the ultimate foundations” of what they do (if this sounds like an easy way out to you, remember that neither math nor science itself have self-justifiable foundations). A much more productive line of inquiry, it seems to me, is to combine the best of what both philosophy and science can offer in our struggle to make our world as just and moral as possible.
Posted by Massimo Pigliucci at 12:01 PM
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beer
Incorrect, I have more to say.
No I mean only think I can comment about you is your name.
It is enough for me to not take you seriosly
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
I guess you just like the picture, because I would never say that Atheism is a religion. You can feel free to delete your meaningless post.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
No I mean only think I can comment about you is your name.
It is enough for me to not take you seriosly
Alas, your posts are why I can't take you seriously. That's because I judge on merit rather than superficialities.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by batair
Hmm i have rejected "proper religion" and so far have not found a messiah. I must be doing it wrong again.
But you have his name is Richard Dawkins and he is a petty biologist. Cheers.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beer
Alas, your posts are why I can't take you seriously. That's because I judge on merit rather than superficialities.
You are free to do what ever you like.
If I was you, I would get some proper education and read some books. Instead making fun of my solid arguments and clear facts.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ3g2zS6Tuk
Here is some brain food for the people who share my view that Richard Dawkins arguments are total crap.
I would highly suggest this video for the New Atheist,but I feel that they are to self important and wise to change and learn new things.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 02:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
I guess you just like the picture, because I would never say that Atheism is a religion. You can feel free to delete your meaningless post.
You said "by killing religion you will destroy atheism itself". For this statement to hold true it is erroneously assumed that atheism falls in the same category as religions...... hence the picture.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
You are free to do what ever you like.
If I was you, I would get some proper education and read some books. Instead making fun of my solid arguments and clear facts.
Now you're just trolling your own thread, not that it was un-trollish to begin with.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 02:46 AM
It's a little confusing when you keep post about New Atheists not being atheists, and then copy and paste articles whose authors quite clearly think that New Atheists are, in fact, atheists.

Also, why do you keep capitalizing the 'a' in atheist or atheism in some of your posts? (not when referring to New AtheisX)


Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
New Atheism is a contemporary intellectual movement uniting outspoken atheists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
Briefly, as readers of this blog know, I'm as much an atheist as Dawkins is.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 02:58 AM
Example of you capitalizing atheism:
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
You look like you are not a bad kid. so let me show you where Dawkins is wrong.
Religion is the way to Atheism, not science. By fighting against religion you are fighting against Atheism it self. I am Atheit and that is why Dawkins is my enemy !
Dawkins is not an atheist. Learn to live with that :P
When you state "let me show you where Dawkins is wrong", and then just assert the fortune-cookie comment "Religion is the way to Atheism, not science" with no explanation whatsoever, this has not shown me anything.

Basically: do you have anything beyond hating Dawkins, et al?
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
But you have his name is Richard Dawkins and he is a petty biologist. Cheers.
You seem to be the one obsessed with him.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
New Atheism is a contemporary intellectual movement uniting outspoken atheists. The New Atheists' philosophies and arguments are generally consistent with those of their predecessors; what's "New" is a difference in style and intensity. Many New Atheists are not content with simply disbelieving in God themselves; they don't think anyone else should either, and argue the point with an evangelical fervor. In the 21st century, many anti-religious thinkers have been the subject of media attention, although many reject the "New Atheist" label. While some prefer to call New Atheism a trend manufactured by the media (specifically, in a 2006 article featured in Wired[2]) rather than a real organized movement, others later came to openly adopt the term, notably with Victor Stenger's publication of The New Atheism.[3]
The term sometimes acts as a straw-man, as it can be used to define the tactics or personal beliefs of non-believers en masse, ignoring internal differences and tensions within the movement.
New Atheists may be contrasted with accomodationists, who argue that common ground may be found between the non-religious and those who have more moderate religious beliefs.
rationalwiki
Ha. Thank you for bolding your own post clearly demonstrating that new atheists are still atheists.

The fact that some atheists actively speak against religion doesn't do anything to change the fact that they're atheists. Making the point of this entire thread a genuine head scratcher.

Maybe you just need to read more books like everyone else?
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
You seem to be the one obsessed with him.
maybe this is splenda under a new name? She seemed quite obsessive about Dawkins as well. And her ability to never understand what it means to be an atheist seems to be mirrored by this poster.

Though I have to admit something about this person makes me think he's not primarily an english speaker and much of what appears lacking in his posts might be something getting lost in the translation. Anyone know if this person's first language is english?
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurto
maybe this is splenda under a new name? She seemed quite obsessive about Dawkins as well. And her ability to never understand what it means to be an atheist seems to be mirrored by this poster.

Though I have to admit something about this person makes me think he's not primarily an english speaker and much of what appears lacking in his posts might be something getting lost in the translation. Anyone know if this person's first language is english?
Not according to this post

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=12
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dereds
I'd like to think that explains a lot. Though some of this is certainly not language. In one post he says 'new atheists' are not atheists and then goes on to make multiple sucessive posts where he clearly demonstrates why new atheists are atheists.

Its all very confusing.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 12:15 PM
.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_Eyes_Bot
By killing religion you will destroy Atheism itself, which will open the door for new radical and dangerous new ideologies ! This is so clear that any one who wants to argue with me on this point should not waste his time. I will dismiss him as a troll.
Better the Jesus you know, than the Jesus you don't know. Amiright?
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurto
maybe this is splenda under a new name? She seemed quite obsessive about Dawkins as well. And her ability to never understand what it means to be an atheist seems to be mirrored by this poster.

Though I have to admit something about this person makes me think he's not primarily an english speaker and much of what appears lacking in his posts might be something getting lost in the translation. Anyone know if this person's first language is english?
Yeah i dont think its splender. People who dislike atheism or new atheism need it to have a leader to hate on. He seems to be the flavor of choice.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 02:09 PM
I find it odd that RedEyes is using Massimo Pigliucci as support for his idea that religion shouldn't be criticized. I think he misses some important aspects of Pigliucci's criticisms. E.g:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo Pigliucci
[...]it doesn’t serve the purposes of either science or education to fuel an antagonism between a small minority of atheistic scientists and 90% of the world's population (those taxpayers, on whose good will the existence of science and the stipends of most of said scientists depend)
This is a pragmatic argument (we need funding for science), not a moral or philosophical argument. Furthermore, from the same article, he says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo Pigliucci
As we have seen, [Dawkins] claims that we would be better off being on the offensive against religionists, because we’ve got the evidence.[...] But a staunch creationist will argue (I know this from personal experience) that god simply orchestrated the whole appearance of fossils and intermediate forms to test our faith. As stunning and nonsensical as this “theory” may be, it makes the creationist completely and utterly impervious to evidence: the more evidence you bring up, the more he feels validated in his faith, because faith is belief regardless or despite the evidence. Now Dawkins will say that these people are irrational ignoramuses, and they certainly are[...]
While he does also vigorously attack Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens for lack of philosophical training, it's pretty clear that Pigliucci thinks that a hefty percentage of theists are "irrational ignoramuses" and that a significant reason not to say so to their faces is to avoid provoking them and getting them to start interfering with the important work the rational people are doing. Conversely, Dawkins often says ""I respect you as a person too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs"". I'd be surprised if many theists would genuinely find that position more offensive that the former.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
While he does also vigorously attack Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens for lack of philosophical training, it's pretty clear that Pigliucci thinks that a hefty percentage of theists are "irrational ignoramuses" and that a significant reason not to say so to their faces is to avoid provoking them and getting them to start interfering with the important work the rational people are doing. Conversely, Dawkins often says ""I respect you as a person too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs"". I'd be surprised if many theists would genuinely find that position more offensive that the former.
Dawkins has become the go-to guy for a certain kind of theist to hate on and I don't think that kind of person really knows anything about him.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurto
I'd like to think that explains a lot. Though some of this is certainly not language. In one post he says 'new atheists' are not atheists and then goes on to make multiple sucessive posts where he clearly demonstrates why new atheists are atheists.

Its all very confusing.
He's very advanced. Atheists don't hate religion and don't deny goodness where it exists in religion eg nuns are good. New atheists aren't atheists at all they anti-theists. They just diss religion maybe because they are closet believers and sinners and they know what's coming to them.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc
He's very advanced. Atheists don't hate religion and don't deny goodness where it exists in religion eg nuns are good. New atheists aren't atheists at all they anti-theists. They just diss religion maybe because they are closet believers and sinners and they know what's coming to them.
a claim about atheists made by theists all the time.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote
04-11-2013 , 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwocwoc
He's very advanced. Atheists don't hate religion and don't deny goodness where it exists in religion eg nuns are good.
Plenty of examples of nuns not being good.
What is the difference between genuine Atheism and New Atheism. Quote

      
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