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Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God

06-20-2010 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freelancerpoker
You can not know how beautiful the ocean is untill you see it. You can not know if God exist untill he call you.
How is He supposed to call when you are turned away?
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 10:19 AM
OP has to be a gimmick. Nobody could be this big of a douche without trying very hard.

In regards to the topic, I can understand not believing in organized religion and the things they try to pass off as truth. In regards to God, though, I always thought that our very existence clearly points to there being some higher power, or creator. This is why I think atheists are dumb. At worst, people should call themselves agnostic, not atheist. To me, the whole concept of atheism is dumb. There is zero proof that there is no creator and plenty of proof that there is, or was, one.

Easy game.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwillSucceed
How can anyone beleive in God? It's not that hard you just say to yourself and others... 'I believe in God'. Let me ask you this, why would you choose not to believe in God? In what way is your life better for not believing in an all knowing, all seeing, all loving creater? Just try believing and see if your life doesn't get any better. What have you got to lose? John 11:40: "Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"
I can try choosing to believe in God for a week as much as you can choose to believe you're an Apache helicopter for 10 minutes.

Saying to yourself "I believe in God" most definitely does not mean you believe in God. Belief is more of a state you're in than something you do, and what you believe often isn't directly available to you and has to be inferred.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunth0807
How is He supposed to call when you are turned away?
Don't worry about that. He know how to do it better than you. Because it's His business .
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lew189
OP has to be a gimmick. Nobody could be this big of a douche without trying very hard.

In regards to the topic, I can understand not believing in organized religion and the things they try to pass off as truth. In regards to God, though, I always thought that our very existence clearly points to there being some higher power, or creator. This is why I think atheists are dumb. At worst, people should call themselves agnostic, not atheist. To me, the whole concept of atheism is dumb. There is zero proof that there is no creator and plenty of proof that there is, or was, one.

Easy game.
Sigh.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lew189
To me, the whole concept of atheism is dumb. There is zero proof that there is no creator
And there is zero proof that there are no purple unicorns or flying elephants. That does not mean that there are purple unicorns and flying elephants. The burden of proof is always on the one making an assertion, and it is perfectly reasonable to reject the assertion in the absence of proof of the assertion.

There really needs to be some sort of mandatory Introduction To Logic course required in public schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lew189
and plenty of proof that there is, or was, one.
Go ahead...
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YertleTurtle
Here is a list of a couple of smart people who were scientists and also believed (strongly) in God. They must all be stupid too - even though they shaped modern science:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

YT
Einstein most definitely didn't believe in a personal god. Also, your list is noticeably absent of any modern day intellectuals. I'm not saying there aren't any, but listing people from who lived centuries ago when there were still a lot more gaps to be filled by a god isn't overly impressive. At the very least, they should have lived after the discovery of DNA.

Last edited by Lestat; 06-20-2010 at 12:54 PM.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunth0807
How is He supposed to call when you are turned away?
In the same way he did with Pharaoh?
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixT4
I can try choosing to believe in God for a week as much as you can choose to believe you're an Apache helicopter for 10 minutes.

Saying to yourself "I believe in God" most definitely does not mean you believe in God. Belief is more of a state you're in than something you do, and what you believe often isn't directly available to you and has to be inferred.
Belief in God is faith. Faith is an unbreakable sense of strength throughout your entire life. I hope you find it someday.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:07 PM
wait, did second chance confirm he went to business school? lol if so ... business school, nice
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YertleTurtle
Here is a list of a couple of smart people who were scientists and also believed (strongly) in God. They must all be stupid too - even though they shaped modern science:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

YT
Fail...
Einstein, as it has been pointed out by others in the thread, did not believe in a personal God. He believed in the "God of Spinoza" (a codeword for 'Nature", i.e, he was an atheist).
Strong cases have been made for Bacon and Descartes stating that although they openly argued about their belief in God, in fact, they just participated in the old philosophical pastime of the "noble lie" ( i.e, professing their belief in public and being atheists in secret) largely because of political reasons. In that regard, see Laurence Lampert's excellent book on Bacon, Descartes and Nietzsche.
Cheers

Last edited by damaci; 06-20-2010 at 01:24 PM.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwillSucceed
Belief in God is faith. Faith is an unbreakable sense of strength throughout your entire life. I hope you find it someday.
That is the gist of it.... Faith, as such, has very little to do with reasoning or rationality. It is essentially a psychological phenomenon. Therefore, arguing that intelligent people become atheists and dumb people remain theists (although true in a broader way) simply misses the point.

What then is the point? The point is this: You either have the courage to find "strength" in your life from factors other than faith (and the probability of an intelligent man doing this in his life is significantly higher than a dumber man), at which point faith becomes redundant and you become for all practical purposes, an atheist; or you cannot find other sources of strength (such as financial stability, meaningful personal relations, an intellectual "quest" or calling such as scientific research etc.) to give meaning to your life and you remain a theist (in a way, you are stuck with theism, but you do not realize it).

The issue, as I mentioned above, although being related to intellectual capacity and reasoning in a roundabout way, is primarily psychological.

Cheers
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:26 PM
It should be noted that Turtle's post did not say "believes in personal God". So the nitty pointed out of Einstein really doesn't detract from his point.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by damaci
Fail...
Einstein, as it has been pointed out by others in the thread, did not believe in a personal God. He believed in the "God of Spinoza" (a codeword for 'Nature", i.e, he was an atheist).
Strong cases have been made for Bacon and Descartes stating that although they openly argued about their belief in God, in fact, they just participated in the old philosophical pastime of the "noble lie" ( i.e, professing their belief in public and being atheists in secret) largely because of political reasons. In that regard, see Laurence Lampert's excellent book on Bacon, Descartes and Nietzsche.
Cheers
Einstein was not a pantheist. He did not believe that "God" was nature. He did believe that there was a God outside of nature. Huge difference.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
It should be noted that Turtle's post did not say "believes in personal God". So the nitty pointed out of Einstein really doesn't detract from his point.
Not really... Einstein explicitly wrote that he believed in the "God of Spinoza". If you are familiar with Spinoza and his views regarding God and religion, you will realize that Einstein's phrase is a rather polite way of saying that you are an atheist in the 1950s. Since Einstein also said things like "God does not throw dice" etc. people, for understandable reasons, associate him with a belief in God. This is simply not correct. The guy simply believed in an orderly and majestic nature, not God.
Cheers
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:39 PM
Einstein was not a theist by any reasonable definition of the word.

Quote:
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
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The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
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I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
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I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
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It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
Einstein was not a pantheist. He did not believe that "God" was nature. He did believe that there was a God outside of nature. Huge difference.
Not correct. Here is a challenge for you: Would you please point out where in his writings Einstein said that he "believed that there was a God outside of nature"?
Thanks in advance
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArcher
Einstein was not a theist by any reasonable definition of the word.
Yes... exactly.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightx
wait, did second chance confirm he went to business school? lol if so ... business school, nice
Nothing wrong with business school if you go to a top one for finance
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by damaci
Fail...
Einstein, as it has been pointed out by others in the thread, did not believe in a personal God. He believed in the "God of Spinoza" (a codeword for 'Nature", i.e, he was an atheist).
Strong cases have been made for Bacon and Descartes stating that although they openly argued about their belief in God, in fact, they just participated in the old philosophical pastime of "noble lie" ( i.e, professing their belief in public and being atheists in secret) largely because of political reasons. In that regard, see Laurence Lampert's excellent book on Bacon, Descartes and Nietzsche.
Cheers
Ugghh...Straussian "history" of philosophy. It is of course possible that Bacon, Descartes, Hobbes, and other people who claimed to be theists were lying. But the Straussian decoder-ring method of showing this used by writers like Lampert doesn't.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. OP is pretty clearly a troll--and a successful one based on the length of this thread. But we don't need to appeal to the past to find intelligent, educated theists. Many of the most prominent living philosophers are theists (e.g. Kripke, Van Inwagen, Plantinga). Insofar as anyone is willing to agree with OP's claims they are only demonstrating their own ignorance and biases.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
It should be noted that Turtle's post did not say "believes in personal God". So the nitty pointed out of Einstein really doesn't detract from his point.
Nitty? Do you really think the difference between what you believe and pantheism or deism is just a nitty detail?
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Ugghh...Straussian "history" of philosophy. It is of course possible that Bacon, Descartes, Hobbes, and other people who claimed to be theists were lying. But the Straussian decoder-ring method of showing this used by writers like Lampert doesn't.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. OP is pretty clearly a troll--and a successful one based on the length of this thread. But we don't need to appeal to the past to find intelligent, educated theists. Many of the most prominent living philosophers are theists (e.g. Kripke, Van Inwagen, Plantinga). Insofar as anyone is willing to agree with OP's claims they are only demonstrating their own ignorance and biases.
Have you read Lampert? He is, although quite knowledgeable about Strauss, definitely not a Straussian. Read his "Leo Strauss and Nietzsche" (which is one of the best books ever published on Strauss or Nietzsche; admittedly I was drawn to Lampert not because of his interest in Strauss but because of his masterpiece on Nietzsche, named "Nietzsche's Teaching), you will be pleasantly surprised.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArcher
And there is zero proof that there are no purple unicorns or flying elephants. That does not mean that there are purple unicorns and flying elephants. The burden of proof is always on the one making an assertion, and it is perfectly reasonable to reject the assertion in the absence of proof of the assertion.

There really needs to be some sort of mandatory Introduction To Logic course required in public schools.



Go ahead...
How about the fact that we exist? Or are you intentionally being obtuse?
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by damaci
What then is the point? The point is this: You either have the courage to find "strength" in your life from factors other than faith (and the probability of an intelligent man doing this in his life is significantly higher than a dumber man), at which point faith becomes redundant and you become for all practical purposes, an atheist; or you cannot find other sources of strength (such as financial stability, meaningful personal relations, an intellectual "quest" or calling such as scientific research etc.) to give meaning to your life and you remain a theist (in a way, you are stuck with theism, but you do not realize it).
I don't see much truth in this. At least not personally. I don't believe due to being weak or afraid, and I'm doing pretty well in my life. Thinking about it some more, this paragraph is almost as bad as the OP.
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote
06-20-2010 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwillSucceed
Belief in God is faith. Faith is an unbreakable sense of strength throughout your entire life. I hope you find it someday.
Cool, I think I'll try this faith thing out. This Nigerian King just emailed me with a seemingly fantastic offer. I'm gonna put my faith in him. I mean, I have no reason to believe he's telling the truth, but that's what faith is for!
Serious question, how can anyone in this day and age who is somewhat intelligent believe in God Quote

      
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