Read my post again.

THe fact is, we are not discussing faith healers here. These are not people healing people. THis is God healing people. Whether someone can heal someone in a controlled environment is not a fair test, as it is not them doing the healing. Personally I disagree competely with the idea of faith healers. People are given the gift of healing, but not the power of healing.

You basically saying that if you God revealed himself to you in an obvious way it would "shake the foundation of your worldview"? Then I challenge you, and everyone else who has never tried this, to ASK GOD TO SHOW YOU. I dont know if he will or not, but all I know is God wont interfere without being asked. If you really want to know whether God exists or not, ASK HIM. Sit there and pray an honest prayer to God, asking him to show you that he is there. If he doesnt, you've lost 20 seconds of your day. If he does, you may have just changed your entire life. If you're too scared, dont bother. If you're too proud dont bother. If you're 100% certain God deosnt exist, dont bother. If you're not scared by the idea of hell, don't bother. But otherwise, I beg you, give it a try. I pray every day that someone might see God in this way, and I have faith that he will do it one day.

Please give it a try, and let me know what happens.

p.s. if you do this, remember who you (might be!) talking to, and know that if you're not genuine about asking, he's going to know!!

God bless you all.

The original post was to give people the idea that I believe that it doesnt matter how good you are, it matters whether you have a relationship with God or not. But God as the perfect judge, will judge people also on whether they had the chance to believe or not. Once people asked deeper questions regarding the ins and outs, i gave a more detailed answer. I think ive written probably written well over 1000 words on this topic, and my first answer was only meant to be a few words long. Im sorry if I have confused you, I hope you understand better now what my views are.

God bless

I stated that I don't believe we are reproductively separated from Adam and Eve, I said nothing about appearance! Changes in physical appearance can change very quickly when exposed to different environmental factors, and that is how i believe race was evolved. I'd love other believer's take on this, as Im not 100% sure the biblical view...

God bless

I like your point about the scientologist paralel, I see better now how you can answer in that way! But what you are doing here is looking, and hopefully with an open mind, just like I did when I first looked into scientology.

In terms of the child abuse, I do think indoctrinating children with religious beliefs is wrong. I myself said several times that I would want my own children to make their own choice. Of course I would be an irresponsible parent to not teach them what I think is right ( and hence about God), but in the end it is their choice. I disagree entirely with any faith which indoctrinates childern without their understanding.

I agree. And physical appearance is based on genetic instructions. I'm confused, it seems like you now believe in evolution. Maybe that wasn't your initial position? Please clarify.

Is it really close minded if the creator of scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, created these works as a piece of science fiction, encourages people to never get medical treatment, and said the best way to make a lot of money is to create a religion?

I think its fair to be skeptical here. Just like its fair to be skeptical if a book talks about resurrecting men and eternal damnation.

This alone does not prove these religions false, but I think we pay a DEAR price for unconditionally respecting other peoples beliefs. I would STRONGLY recommend "The end of faith" by sam harris.

Children place great trust on their parents, so if you tell them your opinion about god, they will take it as truth. A child's mind does not think critically, even if you encourage it to do so. They seek the opinion of authoritative figures until they get a grasp of their own world view. For you to teach your children about your worldview, even if you claimed it to be mere opinion, would be indoctrinating your children.


Yes but in the example I provided, this child would be understanding something which is a lie.

I might point out that, as I have said here several times, should I be presented with a comment that makes me question my faith, I would question it. A faith is worthless if it cannot stand up to questioning.

Id like to point out that Im a totally mentally healthy person, completely in control of my own life. i can turn from God anytime I want to. Im not some crazed man dependent on "the matrix" or whatever because its all i know.

In the end, Im not sure I exactly understand your point. Are you saying that Im some sort of God-believing robot, unable to think for himself? Then I might say that you are unable to believe that you are a not a human being. You're sure that you are, but because you can believe you're not, you must be wrong. I think that pretty much sums up your argument, yes?

I don't mean to butt in here, but I have mentioned several times on here that a faith which cannot stand up to questioning is no faith at all. Anyone who calls themselves a believer, no matter the faith, but turns blindly from questions they cannot answer because their beliefs may be wrong, needs to seriously question why they hold their beliefs. I think what youve done here DS is promote a very important thing, and it shows once again why you are the Administrator. I humbly commend you!

As much of what my grandfather was taught was later discovered to not be correct (eg. model of the atom) are you suggesting that because what we teach children might be wrong that we dont teach them anything at all, just because we are in a position of influence? Lets just forget passing on knowledge altogether and let them learn everything themselves from scratch!

Oh, and healings and resurrections arent just written in "a book". they happen, in this day and age.

no of course not. But what we teach our children they consider heavily. Teaching your child about god at such a young age is likely to guide their behavior throughout adulthood. If you really don't want to indoctrinate them, at least wait until they are 15~16 where they have their own sense of what is going on.

So since he takes into account how good of a chance people got, are you saying that non-Christians (those who did not get a good enough chance), will go to heaven?

The Bible doesnt say that that is true, but it doesnt refute it either. So that is my personal belief, yes.

I'm not commenting on the truth/soundness of your beliefs. My point is that when you say: "i can turn from God anytime I want to", you are being dishonest.

Because you CANNOT just "turn" from your faith. It would mean overcoming the shame/guilt/insecurity from a lifetime of religious conditioning. Not an easy task!

To be honest, you should use language that reflects the psychological reality of your behavior and beliefs.

I dont wish to sound rude by repeating myself, but are you again suggesting that we should teach them nothing, but now just until they are 15/16? Or just is it God that we forget about until then? What if they get curious and ask questions? And what about teaching them morals such as "do not kill". Should that wait until then too? Where do we draw the line? And also, what happened to my right to bring up my children as I see fit?

I would have no shame or guilt in denying God's existence if I decided that was indeed correct. The shame/guilt I was referring to in your original point was one where I had renounced God through being forced to do so, but still believing God exists. Does this make sense? I would feel no such shame if choosing to do so - only in myself for being takin in my something untrue.

All right, try to say this out loud, "I utterly and finally reject the ministrations of the Holy Ghost and place myself outside the reach of His mercy."

You don't have to mean it. Just say it and tell me how you feel.

Resurrections happen in this day and age????

I will probably find it hard to ever take anything you say seriously after reading this post.

God Bless. Not really tho

I cant believe that this is the most "outrageous" comment Ive posted on here, after all, the Bible talks about resurrections all the time, so why cant they happen now? I have read several reports of such things happening. I know this will be as hard to believe as the rest of what Christians may be saying on here, so as always I just have to leave it up to you. I do hope this wont discourage you from continuing to dsicuss on this thread.

God bless

Well, Id rather not, considering I'd be verbally rejecting the God of the universe. If course according to you this means Im a slave to his will, and it doesn't seem that Im going to convince you otherwise.

Matthew 4 vs 1-7 discusses this very idea, when Jesus was in the desert being tempted by Satan. Verse 7 reads, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test". So I wouldnt call this an emotional or psycological inability to reject God, I would consider it a decision based on Biblical teaching.

But consider this - you're walking across the road and you are saved from being run over and killed by a passer-by who pushes you out of the way only to be killed by the car instead. You feel indebted to the man who died to save your life. Would you not feel shame if someone forced you to say terrible things about him, insulting the memory of the man who saved your life? This is the shame I discussed. Yet then to find that the man had pushed you as part of a set-up attempt, organising the whole thing - he was meant to "save your life" and only be minorly hurt, hoping to fleece you because of your "debt" to him, you would feel no shame in turning from your beliefs about that person. Is this an acceptable paralell?

Yes it is not right to test God plus we are judged on our words and words have power. The NRSV bible summarizes one of the Ten Commandments in Exodus:
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

and the NT has the Golden Rule in Mark 12:28.

Its interesting to note that the do unto others as you'd do unto yourselves part of the Golden Rule is also called the ethic of reciprocity and is found in several religions throughout the world:
for those interested here's a comparison quite amazing how this idea transcends groups and national boundaries. Its really just common sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_o...y#Christianity

The parallel is mostly OK, because you retain the key point that my 'freedom' vis-a-vis my benefactor is a function of my emotional conditioning. While I feel indebted to him, I have little choice but to respect him. Once I feel tricked, I have little choice but to resent him.

But your analogy is incomplete, because it does not come close to capturing the emotional pressure of years---decades---of religious conditioning. Think about it: you have spent your LIFE defining your identity through Christian language! At this point, you simply don't have the OPTION to repudiate Christianity, because it has become your emotional and intellectual currency.

Now, again...I am not talking about the 'truth' of Christianity. I am only talking about the reality of your psychological options vis-a-vis Christian doctrines. In reality, you have no choice in the matter; you are a Christian whether you like it or not. I am only asking you to be honest about this fact, and not use words like "choose" or "give my life" or "surrender my will", etc.

This does not have to be true. For many people it can be, but is not always the case.

Personally I have thrown out everything that I have been taught about Christianity and have started over. I take everything that I hear from Christians with a grain of salt and accept nothing without investigating the matter.

And I came from an up bringing that was surrounded with the mentality of "If you believe in Christianity you have to believe in everything that we say".

And although that did a lot of damage to me, I did recover and was able to make a conscious decision to throw it all out and start over.

You threw out everything you learned about Christianity from childhood (including your beliefs) and still came to the conclusion that Christianity is correct?

How?

First off, I came to the same conclusion that most of the atheists here did. I got so disgusted with the christianity that was represented that I believed there was no way that if God existed that this religion is true and that if this is what it means to be a christian then I want no part of it.

If you notice, many of my views go directly against what mainstream christianity says. Nor do I associate myself with any denomination, in fact I speak out against many.