I would argue that some religions require less consideration than others. And no, I don't dismiss things without consideration - a faith is worthless unless you can back it up. In all seriousness if someone made a compelling argument that made me reconsider my faith, I wouldnt be afraid to do just that. And like I said, if you've considered a religion, fair play. If not, Pascale's wager suggests it might be worth your while.

Sorry to disappoint you! Hopefully not quite what you were expecting though... (see earlier posts if youre confused!!)

p.s. i like the numbers you put - eternity kinda outweighs most things....

Hi magic,

How does faith differ from knowledge?
How do you back up a faith?
Why do you think science should be rooted in christianity (religion)?
Am I a tool for thinking 'christian science' == 'superstitious science'?
Doesn't magicmen put Jesus on life-tilt?

thanks

I was considering doing the MOD - Science Faststream application but decided on doing my masters next year and then deciding on a career path. Are you involved in similar areas to the fast tracked people? What do you do?

Year in industry sounds so fun, the problem was it didn't give you a Masters on my course so I decided just to try and do the 3 year course and then a one year Masters before deciding on PhD or whatever.

perhaps we could get you to define heaven and hell including durations...

what about those that have never heard of jesus? do you believe that a god that would send a person like gandhi to hell and let a believing murderer/child rapist into heaven is consistent with an all loving god? basically you are saying that the manner in which you live is inconsequential to whether or not you go to hell/heaven...

this is similar to my criticism above...this basically guarantees that some people will end up in hell...what kind of all loving god would do this?

what do you mean "things against his nature" ? if he is all encompassing arent all things in his nature? why can't he forgive sins w/o people asking? what would even be the point of asking forgiveness since i can get into heaven simply by believing in him...its also nice to know that he will continue to love me even after he sends me to hell for not believing in him...

any comments about his acceptance of slavery, opinion on the inferiority of women, and multiple genocides?

and a couple other random questions...

How old do you believe the earth is?
Do you believe in Adam/Eve?
What about Noahs Ark?

i look forward to you response...

How difficult would it be for you to deny the existence of God? Do you think you could do this, without some form of extreme coercion? (Say, waterboarding.)

You believe that Jews don't go to heaven? Is that something you were taught, and do most Christians you encounter believe this too?

An all knowing all powerful Omnipotent Christian God would know even before he created the universe all of its outcomes. Is this true?

If this is true how can there be free will? Didn't he just set up all of us unsaved bastards?

If this isn't true how can the Christian God be an all knowing all powerful Omnipotent God?

Hi guys!! Thanks so much for all your questions - all of which have been fun and challenging to think about - you guys certainly know how to pick the hard ones!!! I'd just ask for a little patience in my answers, as the number of posts has kinda snowballed! Ill try to answer each in turn as best I can and as fast as I can - but I have a day job too :-) !!

I'd also love to invite any other Christians to share their views, but ensuring the thread doesn't become disjointed. Ive only been a Christian 9 years - Im sure there are people out there with a far greater wealth of knowledge than me!!

I will try to help magicman out a bit here. Per his request in his most recent post that other Christians could help him out with this. Not trying to step on any toes, but from reading his responses thus far I fee that we have similar beliefs.

To answer the question: It would not be difficult to deny the existence of God. I have in the past, and it's possible I could in the future as well. This doesn't mean that I have ever permanently denied the existence of God. But I have in the past, when been questioned denied the existence of my faith. After which(not always immediately after, because I'm very stubborn) I've asked for forgiveness.


In the Bible Jesus' disciple Peter also temporarily denies(aka disowns) Jesus. Matthew 26:69-75. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...tthew+26:69-75

Now, if by your question you mean could I permanently deny my faith in God? The short answer would be no, I would not.

Even after being tortured(waterboarding, etc.)? I doubt that on my own I would be able to withstand any more torture than the average human, but with the strength of God anything is possible, so in that case it would be in His hands.

Hope this answer is at least a decent attempt by me as I feel magicman has done a fantastic job thus far, and if there is any question as a follow up, just let me know.

i don't want to try to take over the thread as i think its been good so far, but in my opinion this is a bad idea unless that christian shares a belief you have already written about...the problem is that most christians believe different things and if there are people here offering differing opinions i think it becomes hard to follow and relate things back and forth...this happens in a lot of the other threads and multiple conversations end up going on in the same thread and it becomes a mess and very hard for anything to actually happen....just my opinion of course...

Jesus says,"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father[God] except through me." John 14:6

As a Christian I believe that I have sinned and am in need of being redeemed by Jesus which he accomplished through is life, death, and resurrection. Without God's grace I am damned, by his grace through his son(Jesus) I am saved.

Jesus speaks clearly in the Bible that believing in him is necessary to go to heaven.

To answer the questions: 1 If we are talking about Jews as in religion and not ethnicity, then no I do not believe they go to heaven. (They probably feel the same way about me, so we're even)

2 Yes this is something that I was taught. I don't believe it solely because I was taught, I also read the Bible and came to that conclusion as well.

3 I would say most do(at least that I encounter), although they may not verbalize it because it tends to not be PC or tends to come off as "mean" to express this belief.

My apologies if this response is not well written. I was a communication major, but working in sales for a decade since graduation and never writing anything longer than a paragraph has made my writing skills atrophy quite a bit.

I was hesitant to jump in because of the same reasons you stated. I was surprised(pleasantly) as I read through magicman's responses ITT that I would have responded in the same manner as he had thus far, although I think he's better at it. Otherwise, I would not have responded at all.

After responding to 2 posts, I'll let magicman tell me either to GTFO or to keep on keepin' on. Either way I'll continue to enjoy and read this thread. And as you can see from my low post count, posting isn't something that I'm in the habit of doing much anyway. So most likely I'll just be on my way.

I've never understood this, how is this at all fair? First of all, what about people who have never heard of the Bible?

What about those who have heard of it but who have a smaller chance of following it (like a child born in India where 80% of the population is Hindu)?

And this is also saying that being good gets you NOTHING in the afterlife. Do you honestly believe that a child murdering Christian will be favoured by GOD over a decent Muslim?

This to me is also basically just saying that God rewards and punishes for NO reason at all. Of course you could say he rewards/punishes based on who believed in Jesus, but this doesn't mean anything without something meaningful behind the belief. Your basically just saying that God rewards and punishes based on what conclusion we came to in this life, REGARDLESS of how we came to that conclusion. I know Christians who say they converted after hearing pascals wager, which of course is the most pathetic, flawed argument ever. Are you saying that God will reward those who were FOOLED by it over those who were not? I'm not saying that God would reward based on how intelligent someone is, but surely he would not reward because of someone lack of intelligence?

Do you feel that if you had been born and raised in a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia and sent to an Islamic conference at age 12 you would still be a Christian today? If so, do you consider the fact that you were born and raised in a Christian family in a largely Christian country and sent to a Christian conference highly coincidental with the fact that you turned out to be a Christian?

Also, do you feel that preteen children are generally capable of fairly judging and comparing competing ideologies with respect to how and why the universe was created and what behavior its creator desires of us? If so, would you also be an advocate for allowing children to vote in federal elections?

Wow you sure know how to pick 'em! You will have to excuse me but my knowledge of the English language isnt great, and neither is my philosophy. Question 1 could be answered better by a dictionary than by me I feel, so I wont attempt to outdo the people with Phds in English that wrote the dictionary by trying!

I don't really understand what you mean by "back up faith". We get to a fairly niggly point here I suppose you are getting at that faith is a very personal thing, and it is very subjective. I back up my faith to myself by what I see, hear, read and experience, all the things I see that continue to convince me that God exists. To "back that up" to someone else would be too difficult, as these are such personal experiences. God interacts with everyone in a different way, so what may give one person faith may seem inconclusive to others.

I dont believe at all that science should be rooted in religion. That is the biggest problem that religion has faced in the science/religion debate. If religion dictates the science, there is a tendancy to look for results that agree with our theology. This is entirely unscientific in its definition. If anything, religion needs to be built around science. How can someone refute scientific proof in order to keep their beliefs? To do so is ridiculous, and people who do this are one of the reasons there is such a large divide between the scientific and religious communities - people who hear the facts but dont listen to the implications they should have on their faith. Personally I will change any beliefs I hold if someone gives me incontravertible evidence against it.

I dont really understand what you mean by point 4... could you elaborate a little more for me please?

I dont understand point 5... "Doesn't magicmen put Jesus on life-tilt?".....i think its a poker joke but Im sorry i just dont get it!!

Hope that helps!! I look forwards to your response. God bless

YINI is an good idea at the present time and awesome fun too lol - paid work when jobs are disappearing fast, and of course there always a chance of getting your foot in the door for when you graduate!
Masters vs YINI is a tough choice though!

Wow. Erm, I might answer these shorter than I hoped seeing how much there is to get through!

1. Heaven and hell. I would define heaven as an immortal life with God, and hell as an immortal life without God. Duration as far as I am concerned is for eternity.

This alternative definition of my beliefs at to who gets into heaven/hell might have been better to start with - it says the same thing but in a different way.
To get into heaven you have to be SINLESS. As everybody sins in their life you have to have your sins FORGIVEN by God. To be forgiven you must CONFESS you sins to God. When you do this, Jesus takes responsibility for all you sins, and they are paid for by his death on the cross. So to answer your question, yes inherrently "good" people may go to hell and bad people go to heaven, depending on whether they are forgiven or not. I know this paragraph will spark off loads more questions but I'm ready for them!
The most important thing is that I believe that God is JUST. If someone has never been given the chance to hear about Jesus, then I am personally sure that God will have mercy on them and forgive them (e.g. unborn babies etc). God, being perfect, will make the correct decision regarding whether someone had a good enough chance to believe or not.
The manner in which you live is effectively, as you say, inconsequential. However people who believe that Jesus died for them will tend to live a life more aligned to the laws set down by God in the Bible, and so I believe they are more likely to live a "good" life.

Free will ensures that people can choose. This brings me nicely to a point I'd like to make. There are two very different ideas presented in the Bible - one called Mercy, and one called Grace. They were described to me excellently last year by a friend of mine at a conference. "Mercy is when you go to your favourite coffee shop, but you've forgotten your wallet. the guy has MERCY on you, and gives you your drink anyway. Grace is when you go to the same coffee shop, again without your wallet, but this time your wife (knowing how forgetful you are!) has given the owner enough cash in advance to cover your daily coffees, so the guy happily gives you your coffee."
When you sin, God doesnt like it, but he has MERCY on you and still loves you. But if you believe that Jesus died to take away your sins, you are FORGIVEN, as the debt is already paid.
My main point regarding heaven/hell/forgiveness is therefore this : - God has already paid the debt, he's offering you forgiveness and eternal life in heaven - freely offering it to you. If you've heard about Jesus but dismissed him, its like you've thrown the opportunity of forgiveness right back in Gods face and told him you dont want it. Its not God rejecting you, its you rejecting God.

The nature of God is a sticky subject. Its a hard concept to grasp. However the Bible points out things about God very specifically, some of those thing being the points I made in that earlier post. He cant forgive sins without you asking because he's given you free will - you are free to choose whether you want to be forgiven or not. He's offered forgiveness and you've thrown it back in his face (see above!)

Back to the OT, again my knowledge is faltering! I'll have a discussion with some friends over the weekend and get back to you. This isn't a cop-out I assure you - if i forget to answer them please prompt me again and I will once I've had a think about it!! Perhaps another Christian could help me out here if you feel you can. Thanks!! clownassassin?

1. I believe in an "Old Earth not a New Earth if thats what you're getting at!"
2. I believe Adam and Eve existed as the first human beings
3. I believe Noah's Ark happened.

Phew thats a long one!! Perhaps you could try just a couple of questions at a time man - I dont want to discourage you at all of course, but like you say I dont want this one discussion to dominate the thread. You can always PM me if you have more burning questions.

God bless

I think you'd need to get me to a point where I dont conciously know what Im saying. And even then I trust God to help me to not deny him.

See post no. 43, 3rd paragraph for my views on heaven/hell... hope that covers it!

Not all Christians believe the same thing - mine might even be seen as an extreme view. many Christians believe in Purgatory or similar places, when you pay your sin back to God there, before going to heaven. How much you sin defines how long you have to serve in Purgatory. I dont believe this is true, and the Bible has no mention of it as far as Im aware.

I think its absolutely essential to get a second view on things - I have to be accountable to other Christians for what I say here. I'm happy to continue answering, and I'm happy for clown to pitch in ideas at any point. What I dont want to do is to begin an internal debate - this is about answering questions about Christianity - not the subtle differences between the denominations.
Also I'm overwhelmed by the volume of responses there have been - Its so awesome but I dont have unlimited time on my hands and I dont want questions to build up too much - its good to have another pair of hands typing, as mine have been going full tilt (no pun intended) for the last 2 hours now and are starting to hurt!!

God is omnipotent, all knowing etc. You just described the simple free will/fate paradox. This is well known as a paradox, just like time travel etc.
I would say that as God exists outside of time, he is in the future just as much as the present and past. Your knowledge of the past does not interrupt your free will, so neither should knowledge of the future.

Once again I want to emphasise that this is weird territory, and philosophers on both sides of the argument have debated for years over this particular issue, and therefore I'm afraid as my knowledge ends here, I wont be able to answer this in any more detail. It is called a "paradox" after all!!

Lets get one thing straight - deciding you believe because its the statistically right thing to do does not get you anywhere. You have to BELIEVE for real - to accept Jesus died for you. You can't just pretend God knows lol and you cant fool Him - even if you can fool yourself. Same thing goes to bad people who decide to believe on their deathbed. Saying you believe doesnt cut it - because God knows if you really do belive or not.

WRT heaven/hell etc. I answered this in post 43, paragraph 3

If you had a child and he or she grew older and became a non-believer, how would that effect your relationship with them?

Would it bother you to know that your child may not end up in heaven with you?

Phew mate, you really know how to make my head hurt!! I know that a Christian upbringing will have difinitely helped me on my way. However I would draw a thick line between "helped" and "coerced". If I had been brought up a Muslim, things would certainly be different. However I would like to think (and this is pure guesswork of course - its not something you can consider too far at length!) that my curious nature and logical reasoning may have led me eventually to Christianity. However we ahve to consider everything we have discussed about the possibilities of not being exposed to Christianity at all, and the social "nurture" (rather than nature) influences on how Christianity may be addressed and therefore recieved.

I dont believe that preteen children have enough knowledge to compare between ideologies. I was fairly ignorant of other faiths until RE lessons in school sparked off an interest into other theologies. But I'd like to stress that I'm constantly learning, and if I experience something that makes another religion more viable or true to me then I'll be asking serious questions about my faith. I may have given my life to Jesus at the age of 13 or so, but the rest of life is a learning curve - many people make a commitment at a young age only to decide its not for them when they gain age and experience.