I understand what you are saying, but this is really a different subject. One that I am more than happy to get to in another thread.

We needed the resurrection because it was part of the Fathers plan. I theorize that this was a pre-existing plan probably and that has proved successful many times.

The atonement was necessary because men would need the ability to have a clean slate to enter heaven and part of the plan was that there needed to be a savior.

Adam and Eve were part of the plan. I think how you view the concept of original sin is not how I view it.

As LDS, the view is that man are accountable for their own sins and not for Adams transgression and that infants who die under the age of accountability are automatically saved.

Christ died that we might be saved and for all our sins, so yes, he endured enough for all our sins, doesn't mean that every person is going to repent and change and take advantage of that.

Why don't we all go through the bible and select passages we agree with? Then we can just listen to those ones and ignore the rest, like the parts about gays, and stoning your children for believing in other gods, the entire old testament, hell, etc. We're still Christians, though!

You could actually cease the bible from existing and it wouldn't effect me much. The Bible is a history, it doesn't say you are subject to every word and must let it rule your life.

MATTHEW 5:22 "whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Sounds like real hell to me.

I love how anytime something is said that is not apart of mainstream Christianity the atheists start accusing people of twisting the words to make it say what they want.

Maybe you should actually look at the text and look at the bible as a whole, then tell me that this belief is less biblical. I do not ignore anything in the bible, that is why so many of MY beliefs go against mainstream Christianity. I care more about what the bible says then some jerk behind a pulpit.

I just learned this myself not too long ago. I grew up in a christian environment, and never once did I hear this. I know now that what he is saying is 100% factual, Gehenna was an actual place outside of Israel. There are a lot of things like this in the bible that no one talks about because it goes against traditional views in the church. One of the many reasons why I will not go to church.

I think that you misunderstood him. When he says that the unquenchable does not refer to duration, he is speaking about the duration that people will be in it.

I just noticed I have to leave for work, will comment more in a bit

I am not quite understanding what you are saying. Could you elaborate a little?

I think that you need to listen to it again. When he is talking about the people that are unrepentant, he is not referring to those that are in the refining fire, but those that are around us today. He says that "they will be made like they never were", referring again back to that people do not spend an eternity in hell, but are annihilated. Also, when he talks about the refining fire he is not talking about some place of torment, but believers that need to be purged of their old wicked ways before entering heaven. He is not talking about purgatory.

There is a quick video that he talks about purgatory and its' history. But as far as I can see the bible does not talk about a place where people pay for their sins before entering into heaven in a purgatory like fashion. In fact, that would be very contradictory to the idea that Christ died for our sins. If we have to pay for them ourselves in purgatory, then what did Christ actually die for? Obviously not our sins, because we pay for them ourselves in this doctrine.

Yes I believe there is an eternal hell but I'm no hell doctrine specialist.

I particularly dislike discussing hell in atheist pre-dominant forums because this topic so frequently goes haywire (its a very troll mania prone topic). Though I may be wrong. Its a very important topic I just never found a civil discussion of it possible before in SMP.

Maybe you'll have more luck, Jib. I hope so.

Anyways one of my favorite bible verses is: "perfect love casts out perfect fear."

I'd rather be a love specialist than a hell specialist.

Did you watch the video? I think that you would really enjoy it splendor.

As far as the discussion here goes, so far I think that the atheists involved have been asking serious and honest questions. It seems that the atheists here, so far at least, are willing to investigate the manner more than the theists. I have been extremely happy with the dialogue so far.

I watched the first video only. It didn't seem to address the OP. Maybe I have to see more of them?

Yes this thread has been well behaved. The posts have improved over some of the really wild ones I used to get. New crop of posters, I suppose.

Yes, I suggest that you watch all of them. He gets more into what I am talking about here.

That could very well be true. I do not think that this thread would be so civil if it was in SMP. People like to talk about religion, even if it is to say they do not like it. So I think that makes a big difference.

What a great christian attitude.

Nope.

The Bible teaches that prior to the resurrection of Jesus, the spirits of the dead went to a place called Hades ("Sheol" in the Old Testament). The spirits existed there consciously in one of two compartments, either Paradise or Torments. This concept is pictured graphically in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).

The Bible indicates that after the death of Jesus on the Cross, He descended into Hades and declared to all the spirits there His triumph over Satan (1 Peter 3:18-19; 4:6). The Bible also indicates that after His resurrection, when He ascended into Heaven, Jesus took Paradise with Him, transferring the spirits of dead saints from Hades to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9 and 2 Corinthians 12:1-4). The spirits of dead saints are thereafter pictured as being in Heaven before the throne of God (See Revelation 6:9 and 7:9).

The spirits of the righteous dead could not go directly to Heaven before the Cross because their sins were not forgiven. Instead, their sins were merely covered by their faith. The forgiveness of their sins had to await the shedding of the blood of Christ (Leviticus 17:11; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:22).

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_issues16.php


That's correct.

lol. yeah, i get really frustrated with organized "Christianity". I think that Christians in the form of religion have done more harm against God's will than anything else. So forgive me if I do not hold back my disdain.

I'm pretty sure this wasn't an insult as such by Brad1970, but it seems to me that you are spot on, Jib. As Greg Boyd says in his video, "It's ok to disagree and ask questions and wonder. This shows faith, not a lack of it. If you had no faith, you wouldn't care when your mind and heart disagree. But having faith means that you want your mind and heart to be in agreement."

And I think it's for this exact reason that, "Christians in the form of religion have done more harm against God's will than anything else." It's legalism that says, "when you do not think like I do, YOU'RE WRONG! And in a way, this is what gives the church a bad name becasue the church doesn't want to hear that you wonder, or disagree, or question. To this, their answer is not respectful to an individual who is seeking the truth.

In a lot of ways Christianity still lives the Old Testament. Christians may speak verses in the New Testament, but they fail to REMEMBER the new covenant, because the old one that said, "you must do this, you must do that, or YOU'RE wrong", was nailed to the cross and died when Jesus did.

Good post.

Running a church is a tricky business (probably one reason why there are so many sects. Its hard to please everyone). A church will sometimes only be as good as the people running it. They have a very big job in preserving orthodoxy but in trying to protect it sometimes they slam things home too hard.

I think there are also a lot of sects too because sectarianism is a form of pruning out the deadwood, creating regeneration and causing the church that loses its members to straighten up (stake itself to grow straight). I see divine providence in it. Variation is a sign of life in faith.

Jesus died and resurrected to build the new temple. before Jesus, anyone could go into the temple and defile God's dwelling place on earth. now, no one can get to the temple without going thru/by Jesus.
it seems to me that the reward is to have an existence with God, and the punishment would be the opposite.

I agree with you. I never think a lot about hell because I always thought it was punishment enough being separated from God but the bible does say it exists.

Yes, it was. Brad is going to be an open-minded Christian's worst nightmare in this forum.

Excellent thread topic, Jib. The idea of an eternal hell is essentially what "allowed" me to reject Calvinist-Fundamentalist-Evangelist "Christianity"

It really came down to a thought experiment. If Jesus offers eternal life, then the result of not receiving it is -- eternal death, right? Not eternal torture in hell.

Eternal life or eternal death. Seems pretty simple to me.

So if this "simple" alternative holds true am I to expect more or less torture(or any at all)? The concept of eternal death sounds more like a nothingness to me rather than any torture per say. I would be much happier just to be separated from God than eternally tortured obv.

Congrats btw on rejected that sect of "Christianity".

That is exactly my concept of eternal death. We simply cease to exist.

In religious parlance, I guess that would mean -- our "souls" are killed.

thanks

At least you aren't prejudiced.

Ah, I take it you are not promoting the alternative of heaven or indeed attempting to covey this concept of eternal death as compatible with the teachings and dogma of Christianity. I possibly misunderstood your position on the matter.

You're welcome, because you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, don't you....

I am prejudiced against all things -- until convinced otherwise.