I think it's pretty clear that the US Government considers poker winnings (from both online AND live venues) taxable. This is very clear at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...2007-a-437114/

It's my understanding from reading these forums that the US Government doesn't care where you are, and that money earned while overseas is still taxable, save for the first $80k.

In addition I think that the Australian Government considers such activities taxable, subject to the six tests I linked to. Of course, different people's circumstances will be different, and 'bware' will need to figure out whether the ATO would consider him to be a resident for tax purposes.

Joe Hachem's ruling is entirely relevant, because it clearly shows that the 6-tests hurdle is applied to poker winnings. Given that Joe Hachem's ruling (and the court cases it depends upon) is the complete history of precedent when it comes to taxing poker winnings in Australia, it's not just relevant to the question from 'bware' but the fundamental basis of any credible answer.

'bware' will only avoid an expectation of reporting this if he passes the tests listed above, and is not considered to be in the "business" of playing poker.

While I respect your right to make various unfounded assertions (that's the beauty of free speech) they're not particularly helpful to people who want reliable or credible answers. When it comes to people's tax arrangements, it's not enough to randomly guess at the answers without any support for such random answers.

This is not expert advice. If you want expert tax or legal advice, see an accountant or lawyer and don't rely on anonymous sources

The funny thing about this case is that the judges "tests" are all made completely irrelevant by the precedent he refers to "Babka".

The key term here is "business". You can be an acknowledged professional poker player and still be exempt under Australian law because playing at a casino can never be considered a "business".

On the other hand, if you accept sponsorship, coaching fees or appearance money then you are probably in trouble.

So what percentage of Australians do you think report their poker winnings on their tax returns? Do you? There's the law and then there's reality. Joe Hachem won US $7.5m in the biggest event in the biggest poker tournament in the world. It's laughable to compare that to anonymously winning a few hundred or a few thousand dollars grinding ring games at your local B&M.

And any particular reason you have this ****ty attitude? I assume your opinions on the best places to live in Australia are better than mine also. Sorry for messing up your thread . I'll have to learn to accept that only your opinions count.

This is not expert advice. If you want expert tax or legal advice, ask Josem

Josem and Kerr report to the cage- two men enter - one man leaves

Three knockdown rule is not in effect!


Sweep the leg!

thanks a lot for the responses guys, didn't mean to start up an argument

I should point that I don't believe software like Holdem Manager or Pokertracker would be cause to get hit with tax. Many casual and part-time players use these programs also.

Well, the Courts of our country says that keeping detailed records is partly indicative of a business-like operation. It seems to me that recording every single hand played is certainly "detailed records".
I think very few - but I think the ATO and the case history disagrees with most poker players.

I recognise I'm in the minority here.
I've assessed myself according to the six tests and I don't think that I could be considered to be in the poker playing business.
It's not laughable at all.

The Hachem case clearly demonstrates that the 6 tests is the relevant test of whether poker income is taxable.

I believe that each poker player needs to assess themself according to those 6 tests.

I really don't think that there is any credible argument that those 6 tests do not apply.

Consequently, you need to apply those 6 tests to yourself to determine whether your income is taxable. This will differ for various people.

Because I'm irritated that you come along and provide baseless assertions that are useless. You say that this is "laughable" but your accusations have no basis or solid reasoning behind them.

There really should be no dispute here over the basis of the taxable nature of online poker in Australia: My view - and the view of every court that has considered this matter - is that the 6-tests need to be applied by anyone who is earning poker income. Of course, the results of those 6-tests will vary from situation to situation, but that's the basic point that is essentially irrefutable.

If you disagree with every single court case, and the ATO, on this matter, then that's your business... but it's neither rational nor grounded in any reality of Australian tax law.

Further, it's one thing to be ignorant in your own life (after all, that's up to you - you're the one who is going to suffer the consequences) but it seems beyond negligent to then proffer this ignorance as advice to other people.

Eg, to apply these tests to my own circumstances:

1. Whether the betting is conducted in a systematic, organised and businesslike way.

My play is neither systemic or organised or businesslike.

I haven't played any poker for a couple of weeks, I have no schedule, and I play a variety of random games.

2. The scale of the gambling activities, i.e., the size of wins and losses

My recent play has been very small MTTs - the wins and losses are very small.

3. Whether betting is related to or part of other activities of a businesslike character, eg. breeding horses

My betting is only tangentially related to other businesslike activities (my full time job). My employment contract prevents me from betting on the same site that I work, and this prevents my betting being too closely related.

4. Whether the punter appears to engage in his activity principally for profit or principally for pleasure.

I play principally for pleasure.

5. Whether the form of betting chosen is likely to reward skill and judgement or depends purely on chance.

I believe the form of betting is likely to reward skill and judgement.

6. Whether the gambling activity in question is of a kind which is ordinarily thought of as a hobby or pastime.

It is ordinarily thought of as a hobby or pastime.

================================================== =====================

I think my own circumstances are substantially different to most professional poker players.

Hey Josem, I have alot of questions about Australia as I really want to go there in the near future to have a nice vacation, and see the great coral reef.

I was checking just some flights and hotels, and the flights to like mid eastern coast were 8k, but northeast coast were 2k, why is that?

Where do you reccommend to go, as I want to see the reef, and just enjoy my time. I just want to know some basics about the area, so then I can do some further research.

Thanks

There's no way it should cost anywhere near 8K. Try booking your flight from the US to Sydney separately from your flights within Australia. You'll get much better rates that way. Book the intra-Australia flights directly at Qantas or VirginBlue (a little cheaper). Also, if you are going to use Orbitz or a similar website for the flight to Australia, be sure to try booking the same flight directly with the airline as you can often get the same price and have better change/cancellation terms. I recommend Qantas, it's a good airline.

I just looked on Qantas for a random period in May:

RT flights from LA to Sydney are ~ 680 USD (and I often see Qantas advertising specials for even less than that during certain times).

RT flights from Sydney to Brisbane are 190 AUD (~130 USD) and from Sydney to Cairns are 400 AUD (~280 USD). Cairns and Brisbane are the two main jumping off points for traveling the northern coast. More random airports on the coast are probably more expensive.

Anyway, you should definitely go. Australia is a great country to travel in and relatively cheap for a developed country. I was traveling there a couple of weeks ago for the second time and had a blast. You should also go to NZ if you have time.

Just wanted to add to the tax discussion itt. Basically poker play is not taxed in Australia.

In theory those 6 tests are what is needed to claim profession as a gambler and thus be forced to pay income tax, however in practice it never happens because 99.9% of the people that apply for status as a professional gambler are actually losing gamblers (primarily horse bettors) that want to claim gambling losses as a tax writeoff. Thus almost all cases are thrown out of court.

There are very very few exceptions, and afaik the main exceptions are when it is a horse bettor that breeds their own horses etc.

by what i was taught (just undergrad corporate law), this doesnt even come close due to the courts bias

QFT.

Are there Outback Steakhouses in Australia?

lets go outback tonight...

lol they don't exist here so ur out of luck

Yes - details at http://www.outbacksteakhouse.com.au/

Josem, do you have AIM or something i can ask u some questions about going to au?

aim: aujoz
msn: [email protected]

Funny u ask that... a steakhouse i went to the other day was Texas themed (in QLD Australia)

(Lone Star Steakhouse)

well i'll be dammed! Can't say I've ever seen one though

There is also Hog's Breath Cafe which is an American-Themed steakhouse.

yeah i looked at the outback website a few weeks ago, there are like 4 and they are all in seemingly bizarre locations. same story in england (another place i did not know they existed).

afl football this saturday night in Sydney at the Olympic Stadium: Hawthorn v Sydney

Send me a PM or SMS (0408 348 631) if you want to come along.

I highly recommend going to an AFL football game if no one has done it, they are boat loads of fun

Go Pies!

I really want to do this when I am there in a couple weeks for the ANZPT. You have a schedule link? I will be in town 4/24 - 5/4.

Edit: Found the schedule. Looks like only option is 5/3.