Thats really what you've taken from this thread? You can't be serious. I am not a "governing party" I am however free to voice my opinion on these public forums and back it up with evidence you've provided, which can then lead my peers to make better business decisions when it comes to dealing with you in the future.

You voiced your opinion in the start by seeking out investors on twoplustwo. I have a highly respected opinion on live and online tournaments on twoplustwo. Therefore, I will share that opinion on these forums when I see you burning twoplustwo's money in a live tourney.

Unless I am mistaken this cannot happen by definition. If I theoretically know my exact %ROI in a tournament and sell half of it at the equivalent markup then I gain nothing (just lowering variance, by "having my ROI paid" out for half the tournament) and the investor is making a zero EV investment.
When someone sells a % of the tournament the markup should be lower than his ROI so that the investment can be good for any investor. He is sacrificing EV for lowering variance/br management etc. If I am selling at higher markup than what I believe my ROI is then basically I am looking to "scam" people into making a -EV investment (and I get a higher ROI on the % of the tourney that I sell than actually playing it my self). There can be no way that selling pieces of tournament is +EV for both the seller and the buyer.

this, but FYP

It is near impossible to determine exact value, future value etc, when talking about, sale of a business for example. Savoy investors (venture capitalists, angel investors) do their best to determine these factors, and make lowball offers based on them. Business owners do their best to completely and absurdly overvalue their prescious companies that they have built over their lives. I have been involved in a couple negotiations with small companies (none of which panned out bc most business owners, like poker players, think their business is worth way more than it really is), and this is always the case. Do you guys really think in reality that if you offered 500k to a business owner to buy him out, he would say "thanks but that's too much, it's only worth 350k" lol. This is just the way the world works guys.

I totally disagree with people ITT who sell action themselves pretending as if they sell action SOLELY to decrease variance, and don't look for a small, somewhat reasonable edge in the markup. Are you really saying that you've NEVER overestimated your edge in a field? That you haven't once charged 1.25 markup when really you were only worth 1.2? It's pretty impossible to quantify. I don't use the MP on 2+2, but ive gone through it a few times and seen regular posters start with a higher MU, then lowered it after a few posters in that thread raise objections and state why. This is obviously basic negotiation principals and a very fair way to go about it. But the point is that even if you are very close on that number, there's no staking deal, investment, stock purchase, etc, that is 100% perfect value, someone is ALWAYS getting the better end of the stick. The use of the term "SCAM" in relation to a poker player saying "Im good, invest in me!" is laughable.

also FWIW, this is the definition of "investment" by wikipedia:

Investment has different meanings in finance and economics. Finance investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, that upon thorough analysis, has a high degree of security for the principal amount, as well as security of return, within an expected period of time.[1] In contrast putting money into something with an expectation of gain without thorough analysis, without security of principal, and without security of return is speculation or gambling. As such, those shareholders who fail to thoroughly analyze their stock purchases, such as owners of mutual funds, could well be called speculators. Indeed, given the efficient market hypothesis, which implies that a thorough analysis of stock data is irrational, all rational shareholders are, by definition, not investors, but speculators

...therefore, staking people in poker is not investing, it is speculating (or gambling)

...and the mere presence of "bad investments in the marketplace" should not have anything to do with the good ones. There are good and bad investments on wall street, no? people still try to pick the good ones! I think that TBJ/clayton are well within their right to make posts/inform the community about potential bad investments, just as a newspaper might about a bad company, but you can't force the company out of business because you don't like how they operate. /rant

Ummm, no? Any "Scam" is just a business investment which will lose you money in the longrun. Even if Joe Tehan is literally mother theresa and is completely delusional/thinks he has a 700% ROI in WPTs. Its still a SCAM to advertise as a WPT/NAPT champion and sell at that markup to naive investors like...betgo for example...who thinks that because he won two big tourneys, one in 2006 that he's a good player!

selling at 1.2 markup for WPTs and while playing at the FT for hundreds of thousands of dollars, to cold call shoves and not know how many BBs/your equity and to rationalize it the way he did.....means he isn't a good enough player to be selling at that markup in that event.

How can you read the transcript of his interview w/ epic poker and not think that buying his action in tough field tournaments isn't by definition, a "scam"?

I don't even know what the last part of this means? How are we forcing him out of business again? I'm pretty sure he still has marketplace privileges...its just a matter if people still are dumb enough to buy into him!

It's +ev for both the seller and the buyer, assuming that the player's anticipated ROI is higher than the markup, and the player can't afford to play the tourney (or won't play the tourney) unless he sells action.

My thoughts exactly.
Question for bear jew: If it makes someone a scammer to sell at a certain markup even if he's not worth it, would it also make you a scammer if you buy action from someone without markup while he has a 100% roi? If timex would sell 50% of his wsop main event without markup will you snap buy all his action or send him a pm that he should ask markup? If you do the first does this make you a scumbag? Not in my book...
Only problem i have is people lying about certain results or hiding results (like showing stars/tilt opr but not mention other sites where they're down 50k fe)
If you sell action at a certain markup and people decide to buy it it's their decision. Don't think we need a 2+2 police to analyze if people are selling with the right markup. Up to the buyers to see what they get involved in.

You are incorrect.

A scam is by definition a fradulent business scheme whereby a party uses deception, misinformation and outright lies to steal money from an investor.

You need to stop using the word scam.

A scam would be for a person to use their past performance in MTT's to sell a package on the 2+2 marketplace with investors getting a specified return on investment over a given tournament series, and then never play the series and tell the investors via twitter that you busted out of the tourney in brutal fashion; that would be a scam.

A scam would be to get an investor to back you with 200K and then dump the $ in HU play to your buddy and split the profits. Chip dumping would be defined as a scam.

A scam would be to gain the trust of the MTT community, offer live play tutorials and then superuse against your pupils to make $. Superusing is scamming.

A scam would be to oversell a package by 300% and then purposefully bust out (or not if you're stupid) of the event so you can make 2x buy ins. Overselling is a scam.

A scam would be to use you and your buddy's famous name to ask for large transfers without your buddy's knowledge so you can take 40K off someone who trusts your buddy's reputation. Lying is scamming.

A scam would be to enhance your past MTT performance through fake results to look more attractive to potential investors. Making up fake results to embellish your resume would be a scam.


Selling a package at a markup that some people think is high is not a scam, there is no misinformation, no deception, no fraud. No scam.

You shouldn't toss that word around so lightly, especially in the current climate when there are real scams perpetrated by degenerate scumbags surfacing amongst the community members at an astounding rate.

You and I just have different definitions of the word scam. It is a slang word, but here is this definition on the intrawebs:

scam - a fraudulent business scheme
cozenage
swindle, cheat, rig - the act of swindling by some fraudulent scheme; "that book is a fraud"

and here's fraud:
In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent. The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and also a civil law violation. Defrauding people or entities of money or valuables is a common purpose of fraud, but there have also been fraudulent "discoveries", e.g., in science, to gain prestige rather than immediate monetary gain.

So I think in my understanding of the word "scam", there needs to be intentional misrepresentation/fraud, which obv Joe is not guilty of. A "bad investment that will lose you money in the long run" is a bad investment that will lose you money in the long run, and I agree in this case lol.

And I read the transcript in the interview and that is lol, and I also would like to take this opportunity to say that I am a big fan of TBJ and all of your posts and you basically are my hero of the internet either way, whether right or wrong, so keep doin what you do bro you are hilarious! no sarcasm intended you really are the man!

OK thats cool then.

if the player's anticipated ROI is higher than the markup, the player is theoretically getting the short end of the stick on that portion of the stock. Second part is basically back to decreasing variance.

Now that may be worth it to the player, but that's not what he was talking about in his post.

lots of truth wrt how we should think of live donkaments

No, he's not. You can't ignore a player's bankroll as part of the equation. Selling shares allow players to play tourneys that they are +ev in but can't afford to play.

If I had 11 K to my name, I guess I could play the WSOP ME on my own dime and I wouldn't "sacrifice" any EV. But that's not the optimal play. (Cue Galen's recent posts about the percentage of a bankroll a sports bettor could optimally wager.) The optimal play is to sell action (or get backed). If my expected ROI in that event was 50%, I could sell action with a markup of 1.25, and everyone would benefit.

If my point still isn't clear, imagine if I only had 5 K to my name.

Slow pony

Nobody argued he shouldn't be allowed to sell his action for tourneys.
Just argued he shouldn't sell his action for X markup for Y tourney because that would be a scam.

I saw a long tl;dr post arguing semantics.

I don't care what your definitions says/business schemes/idc.

Where I come from, a scam is a business venture that will lose you money almost surely. I don't care if the person pitching it is a saint, and completley oblivious, its still a scam.

A SCAM IS KNOWINGLY SELLING ACTION AT A PRICE THAT YOU KNOWINGLY BELIEVE IS -EV TO INVESTORS.
EVEN IF SOMEONE ISN'T KNOWINGLY SELLING THAT ACTION, IT STILL IS OK FOR PEOPLE TO ALERT PEOPLE OF IT.

CHEERS M8S HOPE THIS THREAD DIES SOON GETTING KINDA OI 2P2.

pretty sure Aaron Been said this word-for-word re: MTTs back in 2006 lol

yea I totally understand this, my post (and the above poster's post) were referencing it from a pure EV perspective, which is obviously not the whole story in real life.

As per my exapmle before, if I am a business owner (lets say my business is worth 500k), and I am in debt 100k and about to lose my house or something, and had literally no other way of raising money besides to sell 25% of my business for the 100k, it would clearly be a "mutually beneficial" decision, but the decision itself it -EV for me and +EV for the investor.

Im also done posting ITT, agree TBJ this is all semantics at this point so w/e. GL to JT and I will def minraise allins with the nuts when hes at my table.

It's a scam like FTP was a ponzi scheme.

Are used car dealers and home shopping on TV scams because they may sort of misrepresent what they are selling.

TJ may have thought he was worth 120% and people paid it. Maybe he is. Not that easy to win 2 major tournaments. He has some leaks in his game, but who knows.

Lol at all the nonsense in this thread about Joe's ability and even hinting at Joe scamming anybody.

Quick disclaimer, I'm one of Joe's closest friends in poker and he probably confides in me more than anybody when it comes to poker. Even with that said I am going to be unbiased when I say Joe is one of the best poker players I know of, personally or not.

Also I haven't spoken to him since the Epic mtt since I'm out of town for a family funeral so he has no idea I'm posting itt. Another friend led me to this thread.

I'm not a tournament reg nor well known in this particular forum, but I'm well respected in midstakes online cash games and am a video maker at CR. I'm only mentioning this to give some weight to my opinions regarding this post.

I've known Joe for close to 6 years now, and we've helped each other grow as poker players. Joe's been playing for 8 years full time, while I've been playing for 13 years. Besides the usual superstars of poker, the Ivey's and Antonius's, there isn't anybody that has matched Joe's success over the past 8 years. I don't know how long somebody can run above ev but I'm pretty sure if you've excelled in poker over 8 years you must be doing something right. Also although Joe may seem lucky in a few spots that were publicized, none of you guys know how unlucky he got in other spots in major tournaments that were overlooked because he's not as famous as most tournament regs (for whatever reason, even though his results and roi are better than most).

Now I'm not defending his 42 hand or his K6 hand. I actually spoke to him about the 42 hand and he told me the top of her (Rousso) range was AQ, JJ-QQ, and that there was a good chance she would fold considering the huge money bubble. Therefore he would be freerolling for the rest of the pot. He made a (bad?) read that worked out in his favor. Who hasn't done that before?

I haven't talked to him about the K6 hand since I was out of town and I do think he screwed that hand up. That's not to say he sucks like some of you guys imply. So I take it none of you guys mess up a hand when you play.

He'll be the 1st to admit (usually to me) how he fked up a hand and sometimes when he doesn't recognize it, I tell him how he messed up a hand.

Now idk if he'll appreciate me saying this but he hasn't spent much time studying the game like most 2+2'ers and myself (I'm a student of the game) and he will make some fundamental mistakes in poker. Instead he relies on live reads, intuition, experience, and everything else associated more w/ live poker than online poker to base most of his decisions. This is why you'll see him make some "crazy plays" that online guys think is "wrong". This doesn't mean he sucks at poker though, he makes up for it in other areas, areas that other guys struggle at.

Although he makes some crazy plays, they are all part of his approach to tournament poker and his style seems to work for him. Also he tells me he plays much better w/ a big stack than small stack so he takes some crazy gambles sometimes to build a stack. There is nothing wrong w/ this macro approach even if the micro elements may be incorrect. (Maybe Bear Jew should consider this to help out his tournament results).

To say that he only has 2 large scores, one in 2006, and shouldn't be considered good is laughable. Yeah he won a mil and a WPT title in 2006, but his NAPT title for $720k was about a year ago. Also for somebody that plays less than 1/4th of live tournaments that most live tournament regs play, he sure seems to rack up a bunch of nice scores, and this includes the past 2 years. Just check his Hendon Mob. Also you can't discount the 2 big scores and say he luckboxed both (then we can discount just about everybody's abilities and say he or she got lucky).

Instead he focuses more time in live cash games where he crushes. I know because we talk about hands almost on a daily basis. He knows cash games are a much steadier way to make a living from poker. He still plays tournaments because he enjoys them and does well in them (he keeps binking high 5 figure and 6 figure scores consistently so why give them up?). He plays high stakes cash games too...anything from $10/$20+ nl to $100-$200 to $300-$600 limit games. Those that play with him know he is a very good player in those games, if not one of the best. Heck if I had to say, I'd say he's won a more in cash games than tournaments the past 5 years.

I may seem like I'm crushing on him but I'm only mentioning these things to dispute any notion that he's -ev in anything poker. For somebody like Bear Jew to come on and claim he's -ev in poker, poker mtts, because of 2 hands in a recent tournament is ludicrous. Even giving too much weight in his interview is dumb. He got lucky in a big hand and probably didn't have his thoughts straight when he got interviewed and rambled some "nonsense"...do you think interviews are easy to do?

The guys that play w/ and against him on a regular basis know how +ev he is and that is why these guys (some very high profile guys) continue to buy pieces of him (including myself, and I will not be apologetic for all the money he's made me over the years because of a few bad plays).

If Bear Jew or anybody else continue to doubt JT's prowess in poker, I dare you or anybody else to put up your results vs his, cash games or tournaments, last 8 yrs worth , 5 yrs worth, or the past 12 months. If you can't, I say stfu and look at your own game and maybe you'll achieve some of the results Joe has in his career.

So want to crossbook Joe vs me in any WPT or WSOP we both play? Please let me know.

I like arbitrary 8yrs/5yrs/12 months. Well, I can't play epic poker so I don't have the chance to play a 100 person tournament w/ added 400k to it/and sell myself at markup to it and run like god while playing terrible! Shame on me!

Also, I just turned 23 years old! So its not really fair to compare samples when my tourneys were all in much harder fields and much smaller sample size.

But I'd gladly compare me and Joe's results from this point on and am willing to bet money on it and know a lot of people that would be willing to bet a lot of money on it too.

I'm sure I'd love to play him in a live cash game hu or if we get into similar live cash games I'd crossbook him in those same games. I mean its absurd to argue differently. The guy is a joke. There is nobody that somebody that lacks such basic mathematical understanding of the game could ever be a big winner in tournament poker in the tough fields these days, so its ridiculous that he sells at 1.2 markup here.

I didn't say he was -EV in poker. I'm sure he's +EV in some ******ed cash games he can find and I'm sure he plays 100+BB poker better than he does tourneys as his aggression/complete lack of some mathematical spots are les leaks there, and he just would have to play vs fish/game select better.

I never said he was -EV in "poker" as a whole. I even said in one of my posts that he probably had a 200% ROI in the WPT he won. I don't know about the NAPT he won, but I'm sure he ran insanely good and probably wasn't that +EV in that field, unless it had a lot of 33r turbo sattelite qualifiers..

I just said he is -EV in WPTS. And ESPECIALLY -EV when selling at 1.2 MU or more to these tough tourneys. And I can offer lots of evidence to prove that and have done that ITT.

Obviously he's +EV in the WSOP ME or some random 500$ freezeout in random casino. He still lacks the fundamental basics in tournament poker to be considered competent enough to sell at 1.2 MU for a 5diamond WPT. Therefore, it is a scam.

Honestly, if people saw the 42o hand on paper and the K6hand they'd think he had a very low % of himself/didn't care/was a degen/or was a fish/or sold >100% of himself....those are only explanations......

You can defend all you want. Blah blah. Talk about the past. Lets talk about the future! Lets see if people are blind enough to buy Joe's action on 2p2 again here if he offers it.

I've also made a good bit online in my glory days Done pretty well for myself before black friday. and I will do well for myself after it, and it won't involve scamming investors for markup.

None of what I say is nonsense. The only person speaking nonsense is Joe. He's said many things that are literally "nonsense" or "******ed drivel" and shown that without a doubt he doesn't basic fundamentals of tournament poker and no matter how good you are at other aspects of the game....if you are that bad at shortstack play, then you are going to be -EV in a tough field tournament in 2011, let alone -EV selling yourself at 1.2.

THIS IS TRUTH.

YOU ARE NONSENSE.

Sounds like TJ is a live cash game player. He is probably good at playing deep stacked in major tournaments and doesn't understand some basic things about shorter stack play that MTT players and particularly online MTT players understand. There are a lot of obviously winning live tournament pros, like Helmuth and maybe Jakka and VR who have big leaks in short stack play. Yeh, maybe Bear Jew has different leaks in his play and that is why he hasn't been as successful.

Agree the 42 and K6 hands were really bad. Maybe he is really good at bluffing and so on and have fundamental leaks. Maybe he was drunk or on tilt or whatever I don't know.

However, I think you are little out of line here BJ. Not necessary to be so nasty because someone made some donk plays.

Also, by watching someone play 2 hands , and then hearing there analysis on both of those hands....that is enough information to understand that that person is -EV at 1.2 MU in WPTs.

This is truth. I could go into great detail more if you want, but at this point it would be mean to Joe to dissect the interview/ his statements about taking shots/taking gambles...as he honestly comes off exactly how he plays....like an idiot.

I don't doubt it, but I also think it clearly needs reiteration because many people seem to be overlooking this concept.

Also, I think this thread has shown the difference between people who understand business and how the world works, and people who may not grasp all the nuances but still pass judgement.

I normally would say Stealth wins the thread, but I think jon_midas and JCHAK seem to be the ones who understand how business/investing works.

I completely agree that the term "Scam" has been used FAR too liberally in this thread.

Joe Tehan DID NOT scam anyone, and although I don't know him well enough to be 100% sure, but I feel confident saying that he would never intentionally screw someone over or scam anyone.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=82852

This was the first WSOP I actually grinded a lot and ran really bad/was a big dissapointment. I'd love to make a bet vs Joe for this WSOP as I definitely will be taking #nodaysoff this summer.

Also, I honestly haven't read some of Jchaks posts. I don't care about comparing business or investing ethics to poker investing ethics. I have been buying/selling doing trades of pieces/staking/being staked for the past 8 years I have a clue of what I'm talking about. Just because you can debate with some real world examples doesn't really matter as the business world is seperate from the poker world.

Really a pointless path. I understand poker, tournament poker especially, and markup/buyin/variance/stats pretty damn well, and defend all my points with logic and reason. The people that are arguing me aren't really doing that.

I agree that I might have a liberal definition of the word "scam" but I just believe if you are selling something for a certain price, and it is actually worth a price much below what you are selling it for....then its a scam...regardless of intent.

So even if you are clueless and don't understand how much an iphone is worth and just made an educated guess to the best of your abilities....if you were to post on craigs list selling an iphone for 1000$....people would say its a scam! do not buy!

Justin, you seriously need to try and become a more positive person, I assure you it would improve not only your poker game, but your life in general, both now and in the future.
I think you are incredibly intelligent and extremely knowledgeable as a poker player, but I strongly believe your overall mindset is a major obstacle you need to overcome.

Ur making this very hard to believe...