JT made a couple of terrible plays in basic situations. He could have won the 2 tournaments due largely to luck, but other aspects of his game may be better and his reckless maniac image may help him sometimes. In major tournaments, you often aren't dealing with allin situations like these as you are so deep.

I am sure he partly got lucky, but I don't think he could win 2 major tournaments if his overall game was that bad.

If you saw Darvin Moon at the WSOP ME FT, he seemed to be an agro live $2/5NL player who was totally clueless in short stack situations.

If Bear had a losing year, then maybe he has some leaks in his game or needs to improve game/tournament selection. I mean play lower at something you can beat more easily.

I understand variance...I've been playing poker successfully for well over a decade.

Idk how many mtts Joe's played but I do know he's about as consistent as they come when cashing, and cashing big. I only bring up the Hendon Mob results because Munk bashes JT to no end, esp. his character and I can just say how successful Joe's been in poker, but people like to see the results and proof, so I am pointing them out before somebody says show me.

Stealthmunk is using a very loose definition of the word scam. It's clear to me what he means (that Joe is "scamming" MP buyers by charging too high a MU). I don't think Joe had any malicious intent but I understand where stealthmunk is coming from.

As far as the hands I would be furious if I had invested in Joe. I'd consider myself lucky given the result he got and never invest again. I fully appreciate the value of stuff that live pros like Joe do but randomly jamming heaps with 4 high and no FE is absurd. In the Grinder hand he plays like someone who is one tabling a 11$ FO and wants to go to bed. Calling K6hh on a reshove just randomly lighting money on fire is silly. He couldn't even calculate how many big blinds 130k at 4/8k was. He just saw the small amount of chips compared to his mountain and threw them in. If that's the case just say so don't try and give methods to your madness. He should probably add a disclaimer in his MP packages that he'll get bored and randomly take GAMBOLLL -EV spots as a warning to potential investors.

Hi John,

The only reason I posted in this thread was that CBorders said something to the effect of "if the fish want to invest in a fish, then they deserve to lose money". I took issue with that and that alone. If everyone shared that mentality I think the marketplace would eventually get into a state of busto (could be wrong on this).

I have no beef with Joe, I've played with him in a couple of tournaments and he was always a chatty friendly guy.

That said I think the market deserves transparency, and if right-minded individuals think a player's "stock" should go down then the marketplace should be notified. $20k is a pretty big package.

I wonder how much the marketplace is up/down lifetime?

If I knew the marketplace had a finite amount of money AND was downswinging hard AND I had friends who were hoping to sell action in WSOP 1k's next summer, I'm sorry but I'm not going to mind too much if TBJ goes on a TBJ rampage for threads like this. Sucks that his tone was really mean, but the point still rings relevant.

So if your whole argument is "I am Nicolak and trust me, this guy crushes" then I'll acknowledge it, since people should know John K knows what he's talking about... but the 42o hand and the explanation of calling grinder's reshove is pretttttyyyy brutaallllll not to mention Hendon is and always will be a haven for black swans because LOL DONKAMENTS.

slow day eh guys?

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

the aces best play is making it 4-5X. no fear of being flatted multiways and losing the pot post, looks alot like ace king so ppl may shove pocket pairs over that would have initially folded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yh6SriAjdE

Oh, come on. How many tourneys has he played in the last year? 50? A lot of online grinders play that many tourneys EVERY SINGLE DAY, and they all have some losing days, and some ship two majors in a day. Yes, you can have a bigger edge in some live tourneys with live reads and sometimes a better structure. But don't you see how silly it is to base your defense of Joe on ~50 tournaments?

lol i'm not reading that long post but i browsed....did he really compare my hendon mob to joe's?

hahahaha

if you want to compare poker to 2006 to poker now say that the WPT joe won had a "STOCKED" field....feel free. You're entitled to your opinions however wrong they may be.

oh wow.....so am I getting right is this idiot accepting hu4rollz for JT? I'm too tired right now just woke up maybe I'll check later but prob not aoctually busy today.....but yes....if my ripping has scored me a hu match vs an idiot like Joe Tehan then ship it! I'll take the free EV.

I have to warn you and people thinking it might happen, the last time something like this happened, the accused idiot turned out to A) be an idiot B) raise stakes and try to organize a 750k hu4rollz C) ended up being a thief/scam artist.

Just sayin'!

It

Orly yet you compare me and Joe's results over idk 60 mtt sample? probably less idk how many i play but not that much over past 2 years.

I want the hu cash game to be live, a mixture of NL and PLO because he's such a superstar at both.....and he can get all his live reads.....and i want people to be able to sweat and document the hhs.

I'll happily deal the game

I once busted phil ivey in a 15k at the bellagio in 2007... I didn't cash, but it was pretty sweet.

im sort of amazed at people who play solely live MTTs for a living - I mean even the best in the world is going to have atleast a 1 year losing span if not longer, and definitely a couple years of breaking even or making 50% of their true ROI......Joe should prob just quit MTTs as is assuming he really is up 3.5 mil or whatever he said earlier - clearly running above expectation and reality is gonna hit soon(not even a knock on his abilities)

I think JT needs coaching in late tournament situations. He should have plenty of $s for lessons, but I will be glad to coach him for a percentage of future profits.

Joe played three hands in the tournament indisputably terribly.

24o hand: He needs to show down vs faraz 100% of the time, and he is dominated by his range. Its impossible for this play to be profitable under any circumstances. This is something I would expect any $5 sng player to know.

k6s call: Again, a mistake any $5 sng player would know is -ev.

a7o 3bet call vs sloppyklod: Getting in that many bbs with a7o 3 handed is guaranteed to be a losing play. It can't be profitable vs any reasonable range, and sloppyklod's bluffs likely have 40% equity vs his hand.

These 3 hands were all played in a 20k tournament, when big money was on the line.

The mistakes indicate a such poor fundamentals that it causes myself (and others) to rightfully speculate that Tehan is not +ev in any tough tournaments. I don't know Tehan and am making no judgements on his personality, character, or morality but these poker hands are objectively played horribly.

The amount of variance in tournament poker is incredible, furthermore those who win and win early earn a large cumulative advantage because they are given the financial opportunity.to continue playing high stakes, without being as emotionally invested in their own results because they have a million in the bank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect_(sociology)
Jason Mercier for example, is an excellent poker player, however before he won ept san remo he was multi tabling $1/2 NL online. If we could take a time machine, and have mercier lose a flip with 100 people left in San Remo, do you believe he would still be crushing at the rate he is now?

In no way am I trying to denigrate Jason, he's a great poker player, but its not necessarily the best who win, and assuming because someone won a tournament they are highly skilled is specious reasoning at best (see Yang, Jerry, Moon, Darvin etc.)In fact if you look back at tournaments from 2006, the number of entrants who were "professional poker players" and now mysteriously have fell off the radar is astounding. Poker is a skill game, but its also gambling and looking at the players with the best result and inferring they are the best players is nuts.

Shouldn't his goal be to get better?

The guy said field was "stacked" and backed it up by one hand he coolered one other good playervin. He's a clown. Just like the person he's defending.

Hu4rollz time!

Great post, I agree 100%. In the online world, I think Jymaster is a good example to compare to Mercier. His game changed a ton (for the better) after he shipped those two majors.

Somebody want to set a line on this HU match ever actually happening?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9PwvGEWJA0

You guys are missing the point

1. Discussing the value of JTs "stock" in the marketplace = OK

2. Posting SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM when it's clearly not any sort of scam by any definition = NOT OK