u would fold KK on a QJ9 flop?... BvB? i would never consider folding and would be ecstatic to get 100BBs in

I didn't say i'd fold, just that if he's shovelling money in on a board like that, then i don't think he'd c/c with black KK here.

Thats a good point.

obviously why i said fold the river...

Board: 5d Jd 3d 6c 8h

Wins Ties Equity
66.67% 0.00% 66.67% ( 6s6d )
33.33% 0.00% 33.33% ( AdKd,AdQd,AdA,AdJs )

Not so sure about AJ but even if you remove that hand it's a call.

Why would he play AdJx like this, that seems terrible.

The same reason he would play AdAx like that.

whaaaaaaaaaat? this is a horrible line to take with the NF unless your doing it for some meta reason. that doesn't mean i would at all be surprised to see villain show up with it

None?

people who are decent and not good go... oh i flopped the nut flush... i dont want them to fold to my cbet so i will c/call... then c/r the turn

In a vacuum I don't see why it's so bad to c/c the nut flush here. An UTG cbet on this flop usually get a ton of respect. Obviously we don't want to start betting air/medium hands and check monsters as a default vs thinking regulars, metagame and all that jazz. But if you just look at this hand in a vacuum I think that with AKdd checking will probably make you more money vs Heros range than betting.

yaya, i agree that some rando reg villain here is gonna show up with the NF a good amount of the time, which is why i think its a terrible line to take with it. i wasn't disagreeing with you about that. i thought you were implying this was a good line to take with the NF.


also river is so trivial. i think it doesn't matter all that much, id probably always call b/c i think its such a huge GT mistake to fold a better hand when your opponent could be value betting worse (AA, KK or something, although i think this is pretty rare). if you know your opponent well enough to fold good for you. if not, you should probably call cause your gonna learn a lot more about how he thinks when you see his hand here.

If you never think AA takes this line you obv fold the turn. Easy game.

And yes I like this line with the nutflush, any line that confuses villain is a good line.

Direct+implied odds ftl?

I think vs a good opponent this is a fold. I dont think he expects you to bet/call turn and then fold river when the board texture doesnt change at all. i agree with nxtwrldchamp cuz he seems like a pretty smart guy.

i agree with this against what EZ said. yeah sets are hard to flop and it is 2009, but the basics still hold true.

its wrong to say that just bc someone is a 24/20/4 that every now and then they will pull some ******ed bluff with air in a spot like this and our set is good. i tend to think that reg types that are winning players know that FPS is -ev, and the 50/20s are more likely to pull stuff like that - which would make this hand easy to play.

im not saying fold or call this river, but i am arguing that sets are foldable (something i have yet to get good at).

I don't get the 77 argument at all. People who like a call here like to call because they think villain shows up with worse for value here often enough to make a call, not just to catch a bluff with air. 77 does not beat any of those hands, it's not one of those hands where we call with a pure bluffcatcher.

+1

[x] Good use of checkboxes

I think he has aa/kk/qq with a diamond in it.

shove turn, move on

I like this

exactly, and it is a standard fish line. and as long as villain is not a big fish i wouldnt fold.

I know that, my contention was that he doesn't show up with worse for value, and I was mainly trying to derail the "omg you have a set" line of reasoning

it just seems like you waited for one person to agree with you and qft them. can you give reasons why? considering nielsio posted favouring a call and one of the reasons was

[X] WTF line

and everyone agrees with him on it, wouldn't that make it a good line?

worse sets, Adxx hands... KK/QQ strangely played. He seems to have a ton of stuff in his range besides made flushes making this a +EV call (looking at his line w/ KK).

Hmmm. When I look at my database for hands where a "solid TAG" raises pf, c/c flop, CR turn and pushes river, it is hardly ever air or a weak holding. I don't think 66 is good often enough here to call even with the odds. Once we call the CR on turn, I doubt a guy with those stats will push the river without a bigger hand than ours (since he will be afraid that we have a flush).

This hand is played much differently than the KK hand too. The KK hand, all the $$ went in on the flop. Here, villain has used all 3 streets to get it in which generally denotes a lot more strength IMO.