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Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78****

09-15-2011 , 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stake Monster
KOTH is basically having a limited # of tables spawn + the inability to sit out and keeping your table. So if you won't play regs who sit you, you lose your table(s). Party has something like this going on but just for 5/10 and 10/20. From my experience, this and anon tables, do help a lot in getting/seeking action. I don't understand why they won't do it at 3/6 and below..
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Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 10:41 AM
didn't read past the first page so don't know what people are saying but here is my 2 cents.

They should make some kind of rule where you have to play if someone joins your table. There should be like a minimum of 25 hands or something before you can quit unless you go busto. Not sure if this is realistic and I'm sure there are reasons why this wouldn't work that I'm not thinking of but it would def keep people from sitting at 14 tables waiting for action and then saying no when someone actually does join them.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:02 AM
So we got 110 replies so far. Here are the results (for 100 since the software won't allow more for Free):

1. How many hands per month do you play at HUNL since Black Friday?
0-8k - 26%
8-18k - 22%
18-25k - 33%
25-35k - 13%
35-50k - 4%
50k+ - 3%

Comments:
Spoiler:
"has dropped around 10k hands since BF"

"volume in general 1/3 of what it was before"

"winrate is lower now and games a bit harder but I haven't been playing for long"

"same as before BF, just found diff. sites and play diff. stakes though"

"It's much harder to get action than ever before. More regulars spaced between less fish. The fish are significantly better than 1/2 years ago also."



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2. What is the highest limit you sit at on a daily basis?
50NL - 21%
100NL - 19%
200NL - 17%
400NL - 14%
600NL - 10%
1KNL - 6%
25NL and below: 5%
2KNL - 3%
5KNL - 4%
10KNL - 1%

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3. On a scale of 0 to 10, how much "table selection" do you practice at your current limits?

0 - 5%
1 - 8%
2 - 13%
3 - 7%
4 - 5%
5 - 14%
6 - 8%
7 - 12%
8 - 13%
9 - 5%
10 - 10%

Comments:
Spoiler:
"I usually PTR search my opponent before joining. I play anyone who joins my table if I have the time"

"I'm a bumhunter"

"most of my volume comes from arranging games on 2+2 with winning fullring players (to try and get better), however because there are hardly any fullring tables going i usually sit at my own heads up table and play whoever sits as long as they don't buy-in ridiculously short"

"some table selection at 100, none at 50"

"Playing everybody, except when im really tired I don't play aggro regs"

"Play anyone most the time, unless they have supernova status"

"I only have money on stars right now. But its not that hard to get action. I have everyone marked who doesnt play. So i just sit with everyone who i have noted that plays or people without any notes. I can usually find action pretty fast. If i dont get action i will play HU SNGs sometimes and they are super soft. I dont even sit and wait for games anymore. I never get any action doing that anyways."

"I want to improve my game by not only playing complete donks"

"play anyone at .5/1 and 1/2, select a bit at 2/4 and 3/6 atm because roll isn't as big as it was."

"i open sit tables and tend to get enough action at 100-200nl to not regwar"

"only deny people if i have enough action already or if finishing a session and dont feel like playing a reg"

"I play on sites with mostly bumhunters so my table selection is only partially by choice."

"I don´t play tough ppl at 1/2 and 2/4. I hate nits."


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4. If you do play regulars often: Will you sit with other regulars? or wait for them to sit you?
I will play regulars who sit me 43%
I will sit with them 35%
I don't play regulars often or at all 21%

Comments:
Spoiler:
"If no fish are around I'll join a reg. Makes for a more fun, though less profitbale game"

"I will play worse regs than me if they are weak/passive and I have no other action at the time"

"I play losing and sometimes break/even regulars. I don't play winning regs, sometimes I do at 100nl, but rarely at 200nl+"

"usually arrange games with regs so that we can actually play a decent session without them quitting really early"

"Like i said before, waiting for people to sit with you is pointless, its so rare. Just sit with everyone and u'll be okay."

"Usually I wait for them to sit down with me, but I sometimes also sit down with them myself. I never refuse to play anyone for the sake of improving my game (and ego)"

"95% of my hands are vs regs, only seek them out and rarely wait for action"

"if i dont have action and they dont have a sick ptr"

"This doesn't happen a lot now because it's all the same guys depending on the time of day/night. Most of them sit me out right away."

"I did try to sit regs until I figured out it was too annoying to deal with. Most regs either won't play or respond in chat, or play 3 hands and leave. This tilted me too much so I stopped. I do scroll through and sit with people I know will play though."

"90%+ won't play, a surprisingly higher % will 1 table but very few will play 2+"

"There is little point sitting regulars; they will often play their button and quit, or mostly just quit anyway. As such I've given up trying."

"i just play against anybody, i alway ask to the regs to 4 tables but they just leave."

"I prefer to try and organise games over skype or twoplustwo if i am going to play, that way you don't have the issue with dickhead regs accusing you of hit and running or anything like that."


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5. Why do you avoid playing regulars?
Too much variance - 41%
I do play regulars daily who are better or good - 41%
I don't have an edge - 24%
Too stressful - 23%
I am under rolled - 17%
I am genuinely scared to do it - 7%
I realize I don't understand the game as much as I say I do - 7%
I take it personally when I lose because of my ego - 4%

Comments:
Spoiler:
"why play regs is there are more profitable games to play?"

"because of the rake"

"I used to play any regs that would give me action but I had huge swings and a small winrate"

"Most 50NL regs are actually terrible. More often than not they don't sit me ."

"It's frustrating if you lose 10buyins HU to a reg and then have to wait ages to get action off another reg to try win it back. One bad session vs a reg can ruin a weeks worth of bumhunting."

"You often get hitn run either way even by regulars so it is often time not worth it starting to play."

"Mainly because I feel like the rake is so high so it's hard to determind if I do have an edge. Also it's hard to get a long game running therefore they often quit before I get enough reads etc to get an advantage."

"My hourly playing fish @ lower limits is higher than playing regs"

"Honestly, none of these answers fits for me. There are plenty of ****ty players at my stakes, anyway. It's not too hard to get games...although harder than pre-Black Friday. When I choose not to play them, it's usually due to a downswing. The only other reason is for only a few guys at my stakes, and that's because I do think they are better than me. (This is not the majority of reg's at my stakes.)"

"If I don't play a regular it's because I don't want to deal with thinking while playing."

"Only good regs will give me action"

"Very little incentive to play them but I would if it was KOTH."

"The bad regs won't play me and my hourly is too small vs the better ones"


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6. How many different tables do you have open waiting for action, on average, at any time on a daily basis?
1-10 - 64%
10-20 - 19%
20+ - 17%

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7. What % of your time spent "playing a session" is actually "waiting"?

0-20% - 31.5%
20-40% - 38%
40-60% - 19%
60-80% - 10%
90-99% - 1.1%

Comments:
Spoiler:
"I will sit regs if I wait more than 20 mins"

"If I don't get action I will sit people"

"I play full ring while waiting"

"I play lower stakes if I wait too much"

"It depends on how low I sit. I've taken to sitting between 100NL up to 3/6 (5/10 before black friday) because of scarcity of action. I also play 6max now to get more action, so it might not be accurate."


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8. How much do YOU think your winrate might be against regulars at your main level
I get crushed (8bb or less) - 0%
Very unfavorable (5-8bb) - 1%
Unfavorable (3-5bb) - 7%
Slight loser (2-3bb) - 9%
Breakevenish - 16%
Slight winner (2-3bb) - 30%
Favorable (3bb-5bb) - 21%
Very favorable (5bb-8bb) - 11%
I crush them (8bb+) - 4.5%


Comments:
Spoiler:
"not sure with sample size, so far i'm up, but i'd expect us both to be down to the rake over a larger sample"

"I'm really not sure. I think that when I play my A-game I beat them fairly well. But sometimes (e.g. when I'm not thinking straight or playing with scared money), it might be better not to play them because I'm likely to lose on average."

"Probably a winner, but I am a bigger winner if I just bumhunt and I don't mind the waiting time since I can do other stuff that I consider important as well."

"I don't understand why this whole ordeal is a problem; I kinda see that it is, but it wouldn't have to be if only the friggin' sites would change their ways: You either do away with visible screen names altogether and instead of getting a random SN every time you login and/or sit down at a table, your only designation is your seat number. So all you see is seat numbers. Which means that if you're multi-tabling, you could be playing the same person spread across different tables but you wouldn't necessarily know it because on one table he/she might be visible as 'Seat 1', and on another that same person is 'Seat 7'. This would work for both HU, 6-max and FR. That would also render all tracking software obsolete which would be GREAT! Or, another way would be to simply limit the amount of tables that are open; There would always only be ONE (1) table open for seating at all times at any given stake, and once two people have occupied (in the case of HU) that table, another one opens up for another player to sit down. So if you open up the lobby and see that there's a player sitting there that you don't want to play, then perhaps you should move down in stakes, because there is NO reason why we all shouldn't play each other at our normal stakes. Hell, if I get beaten on a regular basis by some other regs, I simply accept defeat and move down. Case closed!"

"from the regs i have played i dont think they are great but most dont play"

"This is against all regs, not regs that will give me action. It's hard to say I think I can crush a lot of bad regs for way more than 8bb/100, but will be breakevenish or, at some stakes/times, worse, against those who DO give me action at significant stakes."

"vs the people who I would consider regulars at my lowest limits I would think I have an edge. However vs some of the ones at the higher levels I doubt I have an edge."


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9. Has any methods used by poker sites to increase HU action increased your total # of hands played?

Inability to sit out and keep table - 39%
Limited amount of tables opened - 36%
Limited tables spawning - 28%
Anonymous tables - 23%
Being able to change SN - 20%


Comments:
Spoiler:
"I don't know about these things, I just want to play"

"I don't think it helped at all"

"I wish all sites would implement limited table spawning/opening. At some sites the amount of tables where players are waiting for action is just silly and demotivating."

"the main problem with euro sites is that people sit a million tables. imo this would put a fish off from playing me but id be interested to know if they get more action. i dont keep too much on each site after BF so i just sit 1 or 2 per stake. i think that sites should limit the amount of tables per stake and if you refuse action you give up the table."

"I love anon tables and think they by far get the most action on party. I think people like not being afraid of losing money on their account name. I also like it because I will actually sit people there and I know they will play for more than 3 hands. I don't have much experience with the limited spwning tables but I will definitely defend that table more or sit with people more once I get to 5/10 on party where it's capped. Fast tables, of course they're going to increase hands played"

"a strict koth is the only system that works... unfortunately no site has it"

"Only currently have money on Stars which has, imo, done very little"

"Other than fast tables, the sites are ****ing up HU as much as they can (PS is a great example)"


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10. Have you had to expand your poker knowledge or game selection due to the state of the HU games? If yes, what have you done?
I play SH/FR - 27%
Learned PLOL - 25%
I smoke more weed now - 24%
I got a coach - 21%
Nothing the games are fine - 21%
Learned SNGs - 7%
Learned MTTs - 6%


Comments:
Spoiler:
"I spend more time working on my game"

"sad really. i just wait around and think i should add some 6max games but never do."

"The nature of online poker is such that the games are always getting more difficult. You always need to expand your poker knowledge regardless of the current state of the games. Once you stop learning your falling behind. I just talk about stuff with people and i think about the game."

"I've gotten coaching and played some 6m but because I wanted to get better, not because of the state of the HU games. I think people wrongly feel they are entitled to having good games all the time. If you aren't getting good games, then either start playing every reg that sits with you or move down a stake or two to get more action. Complaining accomplishes nothing and it's tilting when those people could be doing something about getting their hands in. I only play on one site at the moment and am able to get the 1k-1.5k hands in per day that I can handle before my mind melts :]"

"Constantly looking for a coach that is a good price/quality ratio. Learning PLO."

"worked harder on my current game, played more regs"

"I am considering branching out to playing live."

Last edited by Stake Monster; 09-15-2011 at 11:15 AM.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:28 AM
Here are some of the interesting stats to me:

- 57% of players play 200NL or below, where action is rarely a problem. I think this might explain why poker sites don't think HU games are in any sort of bad shape. I would guess most people complaining about action are playing MSNL/HSNL. I know someone who plays HSNL and he says he plays around 3-5k hands a month since BF.

-33% of players will bumhunt a lot (4 rating or below for table selection). This to me is kinda off from what I have seen on sites I play at. Obviously it's a 100 player sample so it's not really accurate.

- 40% of players will play good regulars very often (7 rating or higher for table selection). Again not what I have seen on sites I play on. I've seen TONS of regs on Party sit out on Anynomous tables because I bought in full.

- 35% of players will wait for regs to sit with them. This is very interesting and might be one of the reasons why there's a lack of action. There's a lot of willing regs apparently, but someone has to make the first move it looks like.

- The main reasons for most people to bumhunt: 1. Variance 2. No edge 3. Stress. Nothing new but it's interesting to me to see variance up there. Is it possible variance is a much bigger factor because there's less volume with fish to go around these days? Someone alluded to this in the comments.

- ~30% of players will spend half or more of their sessions just waiting for action. This time could be spent learning new games or improving your HU one. (or smoking more weed)

- This to me is the most interesting stat of the survey. ~68% of people think they are winners against the regulars at their main level. And 1% of people think they are very -EV vs them. This to me shows a clear case of over confidence and over-valuation of skills. Not only is it impossible for 68% of players to be winners but I really think some people think they're a lot better than they are. This creates an edge out there for those who don't fall into that trap.

- Most people seem to think KOTH/anon tables would be a good solution and also a lot of people think poker sites have not done enough to help the games be more healthy.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:46 AM
- This to me is the most interesting stat of the survey. ~68% of people think they are winners against the regulars at their main level. And 1% of people think they are very -EV vs them. This to me shows a clear case of over confidence and over-valuation of skills. Not only is it impossible for 68% of players to be winners but I really think some people think they're a lot better than they are. This creates an edge out there for those who don't fall into that trap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

That also explains why the average joe is willing to play poker for money.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 11:47 AM
I'm surprised "smoke more weed" got edged out in #10. Srsly, good stuff and very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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09-15-2011 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezmuns65
didn't read past the first page so don't know what people are saying but here is my 2 cents.

They should make some kind of rule where you have to play if someone joins your table. There should be like a minimum of 25 hands or something before you can quit unless you go busto. Not sure if this is realistic and I'm sure there are reasons why this wouldn't work that I'm not thinking of but it would def keep people from sitting at 14 tables waiting for action and then saying no when someone actually does join them.
I thought about this before and came to the conclusion that it would annoy way too many people in the end.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stake Monster
-33% of players will bumhunt a lot (4 rating or below for table selection). This to me is kinda off from what I have seen on sites I play at. Obviously it's a 100 player sample so it's not really accurate.

- 40% of players will play good regulars very often (7 rating or higher for table selection). Again not what I have seen on sites I play on. I've seen TONS of regs on Party sit out on Anynomous tables because I bought in full.
i probably didn't follow your scale correctly, I assumed 0 would mean no table selection and you would play whoever, and 10 would mean bumhunter with ptr open
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 12:59 PM
Thanks for doing this stakemonster. Really highlights the sheer level of delusion or outright liars in this forum.
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09-15-2011 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredron
- This to me is the most interesting stat of the survey. ~68% of people think they are winners against the regulars at their main level. And 1% of people think they are very -EV vs them. This to me shows a clear case of over confidence and over-valuation of skills. Not only is it impossible for 68% of players to be winners but I really think some people think they're a lot better than they are. This creates an edge out there for those who don't fall into that trap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

That also explains why the average joe is willing to play poker for money.
Yea I actually laughed when I saw that stat. But ofc most people play 50nl so maybe it's somewhat true.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessterfish
i probably didn't follow your scale correctly, I assumed 0 would mean no table selection and you would play whoever, and 10 would mean bumhunter with ptr open
Yea the question was really ambiguous at first but i changed it. It's definitely possible the results for that question are a bit off, but not by much.
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09-15-2011 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stake Monster
Yea the question was really ambiguous at first but i changed it. It's definitely possible the results for that question are a bit off, but not by much.
hey, when u ask about table selection then zero must mean zero table selection (ie playing every1) and 10 would be the hardcore bumhunt.
theres no other logical way when u ask it like this.

so if u ask: how often will u play regs? then zero is bumhunt and 10 is isildur.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-15-2011 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredron
- This to me is the most interesting stat of the survey. ~68% of people think they are winners against the regulars at their main level. And 1% of people think they are very -EV vs them. This to me shows a clear case of over confidence and over-valuation of skills. Not only is it impossible for 68% of players to be winners but I really think some people think they're a lot better than they are. This creates an edge out there for those who don't fall into that trap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect
I mean this is probably true to some extent but you also have to consider that the people who chose to take the survey are self-selecting and 2p2ers which might mean they are more likely than 50% to have an edge vs the field.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-16-2011 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stake Monster
- 40% of players will play good regulars very often
Knock the zero off and you are probably closer to the real percentage.
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09-16-2011 , 05:39 PM
Yeah what the ****, I would say that less than 5% plays you when you sit, 15% play a few hands and when you don't open-limp they sit out, and the rest, 80% just insta sit-outs when they see you buy in full.
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09-16-2011 , 07:04 PM
That's just a by-product of ego.. people always claim they play regs a lot more often than they are, even on a survey.
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-17-2011 , 05:10 AM
How about if you really want action from regulars... you post on here and play regulars? Really guys if you're being honest for a second: (Almost) nobody has a "lack of action". They have a "lack of action from worse players". Just because someone is better doesn't mean they should get access to the fish first. That is arbitrary and stupid. This is also good for less than 5% of the guys posting here.

I wouldn't mind playing KotH actually... but I know what that would quickly devolve to. The best X guys would take *all* the tables 200+ or maybe 400+ and never play each other. Then they'd just bum hunt their tables because they would fill up on action so fast. Once in a while another great player will sit and contest the table, and they'll likely just give the seat up fast because they already have 5 tables of fish going. If KotH were going to add just enough tables so I personally reached that cut off I would be in favor of it, simply because it is good for *me*. I don't see how this adds anything to poker overall, though.

Last edited by Kardnel; 09-17-2011 at 05:21 AM.
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09-17-2011 , 05:18 AM
Quote:
-33% of players will bumhunt a lot (4 rating or below for table selection). This to me is kinda off from what I have seen on sites I play at. Obviously it's a 100 player sample so it's not really accurate.
I thought this number was backwards... like 10 was maximum table selection. So basically these results are meaningless...
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-17-2011 , 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardnel
I thought this number was backwards... like 10 was maximum table selection. So basically these results are meaningless...
Made the same mistake ><
Survey on the state of heads-up games. Please participate :)  ****RESULTS POSTED #78**** Quote
09-17-2011 , 09:22 AM
btw limited lobby could work...
on ps, turbo husng have only one lobby, and hypers have two... the best players are able to take the lobbies, if you want you can sit down and play if not you can change game.

Right now, nlhu is not playable... you can't put enough volume so right now nlhu players haven't a bright future...
Also pokerrooms are damaged by the bumhunting... less action = less volume = less rake

so why pr don't simply set a limited amount of available lobbies per stake?
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09-17-2011 , 10:03 AM
this survey just shows how over confident people are in own abilities, and how even in an anonymous survey have to lie to themselves to feel better about bumhunting rats. wp
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09-17-2011 , 06:07 PM
well, in some defense the biggest chunk of people who filled out the survey sit at 50nl and 100nl and obv the conditions are much different at those limits vs the conditions at mid/high stakes. the people might not be lying but it skews the averages.
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09-17-2011 , 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cero_dinero
well, in some defense the biggest chunk of people who filled out the survey sit at 50nl and 100nl and obv the conditions are much different at those limits vs the conditions at mid/high stakes. the people might not be lying but it skews the averages.

The majority skews the average, lol
Ye I see what you're saying.
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09-18-2011 , 01:03 PM
It's funny how all of you are choked by the sentence "68% are above average" while it's totally possible.
You make confusion between average and median.
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