First i have to say after so many people want to check ans also high stake player said we can only check i began to check KK on A high, the nasty thing is i lost in every pot more like i would normally, just because a hand before, they just didnt bet with AQ on A and i bet half pot turn and river.
Here another hand (i think i stop this now).
He cb on flop and i bet half pot on turn on a 8, he calls.
River is another 8 and i c/c and yes this was unlucky of course, but the other lines what do you do if you check flop and he cb and you bet turn and he calls ?
If i cbet half pot on flop i can pretty much c/f turn and river.
Not sure if i really stop it totally to use the new line, but until know the line has no merit, people just dont bluff on flop and even dont valuebet AQ sometimes, so if they check you dont have that infogain and if you c/c flop against the nits the hand dont play more easily.

I think i could propably fold river, also i dont think he has an A every time, i think this is my mistake, that i dont believe this half pot bet on an A high board on river,they just cb so many 99-QQ hands, this is didnt recognosize fast enouph, that he dont valuebet this often this thin.
888 Poker - $0.10 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 90.8 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 5)
SB: 53 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
Hero (BB): 101.5 BB
UTG: 112.8 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 5)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 17.37, PFR: 13.17, 3Bet Preflop: 3.77, Hands: 171)
CO: 99 BB (VPIP: 34.29, PFR: 26.86, 3Bet Preflop: 10.61, Hands: 181)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero raises to 8 BB, BTN calls 6 BB

Flop: (16.5 BB, 2 players) 4 A 5
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: (16.5 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero bets 8.2 BB, BTN calls 8.2 BB

River: (32.9 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, BTN bets 16.4 BB, Hero calls 16.4 BB

C/C turn, C/F river.... No real reason to lead the turn as we will not get better hands to fold and not a lot of worse hands to call xcept maybe some unlikely random turned draws and 8X hands...

I like to check flop and turn if I'm oop. There's no rush to get value from worse and it's more likely he'll bluff with more hands. Plus you're not really afraid of many cards.

If ip I would x flop, bet turn and, depending on the runout, bet river small.

Perhaps this was my mistake on the other hand, here it wasnt a mistake against his hand of course to bet turn.
He had 87o so yes he would fold the flop but made an unprofitable turncall.
If you check flop and turn and he dont bluff what are the benefits ?
changes he hit a set on turn and river are not this small with all his pp and on several flop he has one pair he has 5 outs or over 20% to hit two pairs on river.
So what you gain from checking flop, not to lose against A you either call one half pot bet, o.k. im not saying im right, im only not getting this line, i just did worse, balugahwhale wants to check and fold to a big flopbet.
Until know with cbet half pot turn and river i did worse and this hand i do better on turn if i c/f river with the check on flop, but after all i didnt work for me until know to check with KK on A high oop.

He's only going to call with hands that beat you. You're not really worried about any cards to come. By checking you allow him to bluff. If he doesn't bluff then you have underplayed your hand and he'll call you lighter. You only have second pair, don't overplay it.

Well, if you're talking about facing a bet on AXX board with KK I think that's the first issue because it really isn't going to happen, like ever. If you have KK you are 3b/4b/5b pre pretty much always so you're going to be the aggressor. That said, the only time you would be facing a bet on AXX board is when they donk into you.

Now, some flawed logic here as you say stuff like "missing information" because you didn't bet. This is one of the fishiest things people can say. If you are worried about people bluffing you off your hand too often then your flop checking range is clearly atrocious and you're not checking flop with enough AX hands to balance the times you have KK/QQ/JJ type hands.

Now, with all that being said, this hand is clearly different. First off, I'd probably bet 9bb pre just because this guy is more likely a fish. I don't mind betting turn vs. a fish, but I'd just x/f river.

+1, once you get this you shouldnt be frustrated by these spots anymore.
fold river btw

I check much flops with weak Aces, its nothing about overall gameplan, its just if you check flop and someone bets on A high , it would be fine to know whether you can call profitable or not.
So im not overfolding at all on a High but just think about the average pretty bad to much cally unknown, who is call with JJ on A high but never bet.
I also just mentioned it is a big different at position, say you 3-bet against UTG and some unknown pretty much has many pp but not so many A Combos, if he is not ******ed enouph to call against the very tight range and call with AQo or even AJo.
If he cb turn again, would you finally bet ?
I know checking flop is o.k., but still checking turn i was never thinking about, he call lighter on turn, each pp, each draw may call, so now im confused, i also think playing to passive oop is difficult.

Why an unknown should call worser hands on turn ?

These guys know what they're talking about, you should be taking their knowledge and running with it. You're not even asking as to why they think that way, instead you're trying to prove you know better.

No i only said i tried it this way and it went worser with checking flop, not more, perhaps im not good enouph to take another line then cbetting, because its really tough to play it other direction.

Looking for input from the community:

I think we can all agree that taking "standard lines" has its merits, but being able to mix it up and take lines that the general population is not using is a good way to eek out a higher winrate.

For this reason, and it is largely villain dependent, I will occasionally bet an ace-high flop with KK or QQ, especially in 3bet pots against fish. It's not like we don't have the ability to rep the ace, and quite frankly I don't mind taking down a pot with second pair. Sure, I love stacking off with my primo hands, but its ludicrous to assume that it will happen every time. Even if we get called, the few times we hit the miraculous king on the turn or river, we are felting villains A LOT. Also, I feel like our hand becomes particularly face up when we are opening our Kings from EP with a tight range, checking flop, betting turn, then checking river. I'm not the kind of person to worry about being exploited at the micros, but I'll be bluffing and applying a lot of pressure to Tag villains who take this line. I imagine that there are other competent regs doing the same as myself.

In my aggrotard opinion... Cbet almost 100%.... that's balance. They'll start calling down with worse.

Is balancing at 10nl really worth it? I thought the majority of micro players were not observant enough to notice or even care about your flop check ranges.

Agreed.

oops wrong thread

it is very easy to find right calling range. Just put the hand to elab or Fzilla anything, add your range for check flop, find how much you must call according to bet size.
As soon as you do the work you will be no more scared x/call, you will use correct hands for the move and gain money with right bluffcatch.

Two ways of looking at it. One is that you want to exploit the hell out of players. The other is that if you have spots like this where you don't know what to do, then yes you want to have some considerations of balance.

+1. Simple really. Not saying there isn't tons of discussion to be had, obv there always is, but it's not a tough one in terms of having a simple strategy to build on with this common spot.

Yeah, so basically if you think just betting all your AJ and lower hands otf is highest EV, go for it, but if you are doing that you are making the assumptions that people won't bluff into you off and are calling wide (which may be true) but likewise, under these assumptions you could just x/f flop or turn with KK for the same reasons.

Just read this and posted a similar question on a QQ on A high post. But which Ax are good candidates in our check call range? Its not like we are going to take out a random number generator while multi tabling

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Basicaly all Ax we cannot bet 3streets for value. Depends ofc on preflop ranges and betsizing.
Also hands that some way block or control draws are better for check.

I honestly always had an approach to bet/raise a ton and c/c almost never. After watching a random twitch stream with Janson Summerville who is literally the definition of a station I chaged my opinion about c/c a ton lol. Its actually not as fishy as I thought.
I started to c/c a ton and honestly it still blows my mind how well it works I sometimes get people who are really nitty and passive as hell to give me some value.

So maybe something like AdJx on As9d8d kind of a board where we 3bet from the blinds vs a button raise?

Yes, good example.

It's not even purely about balance even. Being an agro tard doesn't mean betting 100% of range here is better. If anything you would want to check MORE than most regs with a lot of your range since more of it is marginal.

Being creative is great and all but you end up in many spots without a plan and end up inevitably making mistakes by overfolding , calling or barreling. Part of reason we use blockers generally on bluffs other than obvious other reasons.

Like others have said you can bet all your AT AJ hands or KK but often checking has higher overall EV. When you have proper ranges in spots you're not forced to hero call when KK is literally top of your range here. Becomes a trivial fold since you have so much better to call with. Some may wonder what point is of calling turn with KK to fold to river bet. Once we check call turn villain has to decide how many ax combos we have in xc range here vs how many big PP. So on river villain now has a more difficult time deciding to bluff or give up. God I've turned some setting on phone and autocorrect gone mad

You guys are making things waaaaaaay too complicated.
EZ solution: Just triple barrel KK on those Axx boards. You block AK, and 99.99% of the time villains will 3b+ their AA so you never have to worry about that. Now you no have to worry about being bluffed off your hand! If your opponent has KK too, well guess what? They aren't gonna call a triple barrel on Axxxx board so you got them off a chop which is +ev in itself.