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Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP

06-25-2019 , 03:26 PM
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
BTN ($6.19) [VPIP: 40.6% | PFR: 27.8% | AGG: 29.3% | 3-Bet: 10.2% | Hands: 348]
SB ($5.00) [VPIP: 21.7% | PFR: 20.1% | AGG: 38.7% | 3-Bet: 9.9% | Hands: 538]
HERO ($5.00) [VPIP: 26.5% | PFR: 22.4% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 10.7% | Hands: 81796]
HJ ($15.32) [VPIP: 66.7% | PFR: 33.3% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 3]
CO ($6.38) [VPIP: 20.1% | PFR: 15.8% | AGG: 28.1% | 3-Bet: 7.5% | Hands: 5887]

Dealt to Hero: 8 8

HJ Raises To $0.10, CO Folds, BTN Calls $0.10, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.55, HJ Folds, BTN Calls $0.45

Hero SPR on Flop: [3.65 effective]
Flop ($1.22): 9 K 4
HERO Bets $0.91 (Rem. Stack: 3.54), BTN Calls $0.91 (Rem. Stack: 4.73)

Turn ($3.04): 9 K 4 5
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $2.28 (Rem. Stack: 2.45), HERO Raises To $3.54 (allin)
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 03:35 PM
What's the reason for cbetting?
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelessons
What's the reason for cbetting?
K high and J high boards are cbet at near range.

Q high/T high/Ace high not so much.

Edot: I should preface this by saying I have only Solved X52 tt boards so maybe X94 tt is different but not 100% sure.

Last edited by DooDooPoker; 06-25-2019 at 03:47 PM.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
K high and J high boards are cbet at near range.

Q high/T high/Ace high not so much.

I guess I don’t understand why you say this. I can see this possibly being true if you are playing in position, but here, you are OOP against a raiser and a caller. Buttons range rates to be fairly strong here. This really seems like a flop check to me.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:17 PM
Sorry dude, I'm voting donkey moves. Overaggression on all streets IMO.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_lose
I guess I don’t understand why you say this. I can see this possibly being true if you are playing in position, but here, you are OOP against a raiser and a caller. Buttons range rates to be fairly strong here. This really seems like a flop check to me.
Well we have a higher concentration of Kx than him. Also there's almost no good turns for 88 so getting Villain to fold AQ is a huge win
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nar160
Sorry dude, I'm voting donkey moves. Overaggression on all streets IMO.
You prefer a call preflop? I'm not sure what is better tbh. I know TT is definitely a squeeze and most likely 99 as well.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
K high and J high boards are cbet at near range.

Q high/T high/Ace high not so much.

Edot: I should preface this by saying I have only Solved X52 tt boards so maybe X94 tt is different but not 100% sure.
K82 is a range bet but k85 is more mixed. The king being a diamond is better for cbetting. I should have checked my sheet first.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:26 PM
I misread the action. Re-reading and re-evaluating.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelessons
K82 is a range bet but k85 is more mixed. The king being a diamond is better for cbetting. I should have checked my sheet first.
I figured me having a made a cbet more likely than not. I didn't know k85 was mixed I'm going to have study 3bet pots OOP MORE.

Thoughts OTT?
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_lose
I guess I don’t understand why you think we have more Kx than V. Maybe I’m wrong here, but I think he has all AK and KQ combos, pulse suited Ks down to 9 or so. I just don’t think we’re calling that wide OOP. Again, I could be way wrong here. Plus, I think V has all PPs JJ+ and we don’t.
Well he usually 3bets those preflop. Not saying it's impossible but I have many more combos than he does.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
Well he usually 3bets those preflop. Not saying it's impossible but I have many more combos than he does.


Yeah, I misread. I’m re-reading everything and thinking it through.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
I figured me having a Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP: made a cbet more likely than not. I didn't know k85 was mixed I'm going to have study 3bet pots OOP MORE.



Thoughts OTT?
I should caveat that I just tweaked the IP range and am rerunning, but I doubt it's much different.

I prefer call ott. Hand is strong enough to bluff catch.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelessons
I should caveat that I just tweaked the IP range and am rerunning, but I doubt it's much different.

I prefer call ott. Hand is strong enough to bluff catch.
You don't think his huge turn sizing commits him?
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
You don't think his huge turn sizing commits him?
Yeah I misread that. It's fine if you think this guy has enough bluffs.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 05:17 PM
Sorry for the confusion on my end.

To answer a question you asked earlier to someone else: yes, I prefer a flat pre. I think 3B with this hand makes out EP 3B range too wide. We’re left playing a bloated pit OOP. I think the problem with 3B this wide is that, on textures like this, we don’t have any real good options. I disagree with notion that we have more Kx in our range. I think a lot of Vs range is going to be small-to-mid PPs and big broadway cards (KQ, KJ, maybe KTs, QJ, QT) that he decided to call twice with pre. I don’t think he ever shows up here with AQ, I think he 3B that himself.

Being OOP with a weaker range, I do prefer check on the flop. I don’t think this board gives us the range advantage that you do (and I may well be wrong about that, take everything g I say with as much salt as you like.) I think, at worst, his range has flopped several draws that he’s not likely to fold to a c-bet and he’ll realize his equity far too frequently, because of his position, to make a c-bet profitable.

Yes, his sizing OTT likely commits him. But I do t think that’s a good thing for us. His range is incredibly polarized and all we really have is a bluff catcher. I wouldn’t hate a fold here, honestly. But if you’re determined to see the river, I think calling down makes the most sense. Being that he is committed, you’re raise isn’t going to get him off anything and I don’t think you’re beating much of his value range here.

Just my thoughts. I’ve been away from poker for a while, so I may be rusty and I’m always open to learn new things, but this is how I see this one.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-25-2019 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
You prefer a call preflop? I'm not sure what is better tbh. I know TT is definitely a squeeze and most likely 99 as well.
Yeah definitely a call for me. I'd prob call 99 as well, and squeeze TT. Could be wrong on 99, but to me it seems given positions and sizing, we're just not getting that many fold/folds and our equity vs a call isn't super great either given we're oop. I'd rather flip in 1 bb and see a flop for certain against wider ranges
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 12:22 AM
flop cbet esp with this size is pretty horrible.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 12:33 AM
The flop sizing is fine as OOP 3bets should be 1/3 at a high frequency on dry boards and lower freq w/ a 2/3 sizing and with a diamond it should be cbet. The mistake is 3betting this hand vs EP probably.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 12:46 AM
K94fd is not exactly the same as K62r.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo
flop cbet esp with this size is pretty horrible.
He has a 40VPIP -our cbet frequency should go up against wider ranges.

Results

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
BTN ($6.19) [VPIP: 40.7% | PFR: 27.5% | AGG: 27.7% | 3-Bet: 10.3% | Hands: 390]
SB ($5.00) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 20.2% | AGG: 43.3% | 3-Bet: 10% | Hands: 1034]
HERO ($5.00) [VPIP: 26.5% | PFR: 22.3% | AGG: 33.2% | 3-Bet: 10.7% | Hands: 82588]
HJ ($15.32) [VPIP: 66.7% | PFR: 33.3% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 3]
CO ($6.38) [VPIP: 20% | PFR: 15.7% | AGG: 28.1% | 3-Bet: 7.4% | Hands: 5946]

Dealt to Hero: 8 8

HJ Raises To $0.10, CO Folds, BTN Calls $0.10, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.55, HJ Folds, BTN Calls $0.45

Hero SPR on Flop: [3.65 effective]
Flop ($1.22): 9 K 4
HERO Bets $0.91 (Rem. Stack: 3.54), BTN Calls $0.91 (Rem. Stack: 4.73)

Turn ($3.04): 9 K 4 5
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $2.28 (Rem. Stack: 2.45), HERO Raises To $3.54 (allin), BTN Calls $1.26 (Rem. Stack: 1.19)

River ($10.12): 9 K 4 5 7

Spoiler:

BTN shows: A 3

HERO wins: $9.62
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
K high and J high boards are cbet at near range.
range bet with this size?

Turn is just spew IMO...

his call flop is even worse
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 02:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
You prefer a call preflop? I'm not sure what is better tbh. I know TT is definitely a squeeze and most likely 99 as well.
Not really.

It's a 2x open
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote
06-26-2019 , 03:17 AM
too fancy vs random button mashers at these stakes. He could literally have anything as indicated by the results. When players minraise pre it's their twisted version of a blocking bet. They think it'll freeze the action and just get a bunch of callers instead of having to face a headsup call of .20 or more if they limped. Based upon that I'd say we have no FE once we enter the hand so 3betting just seems to be bloating the pot. I'd take the odds and call, or get really out of line and 3bet to $1 with the plan on getting the money in pretty quickly, which is a lousy spot to put yourself in with 88 since youre basically just guessing whether or not you're any good and if your opponent will ever fold.
Makin money moves or Donkey moves? 5NL 3bet Pot OOP Quote

      
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