I've been playing a lot of zone on Bovada lately, and I think GTO is probably the best way to go about certain spots. There also seems to be a decent amount of people willing to run bluffs for entire stacks when your range can't be as good as theirs. In the game I would guess there's ~8% 3 bet rate around c/o, BTN, Blinds area (but still need to upload hands to PT to verify).


So.... couple spots, that can come up with AQ. Best way to play these?


So far I haven't had the following hands happen, but have had multiple times where on Qxx, I call the turn, then they check back on the river with AJ, or random suited connector, and give up. But curious what approach is good if they do jam river?


Hand 1

Hero dealt A Q

Hero raises to $1.50 in the C/O.
Btn 3 bets to $4.50.
SB folds
BB folds
Hero calls.


Flop (9.75) Q 8 2

Hero checks
BTN bets $6.
Hero calls

Turn ($21.75) Q 8 2 2

Hero checks
Btn bets $12.
Hero calls $12

River ($45.75) Q 8 2 2 5

Hero checks
Btn bets $30, and is all in
Hero: ????




Hand 2

Hero dealt A Q

Hero raises to $1.50 in the C/O.
Btn 3 bets to $4.50.
SB folds
BB folds
Hero calls.


Flop (9.75) A:heart 8 2

Hero checks
BTN bets $6.
Hero calls

Turn ($21.75) A 8 2 2

Hero checks
Btn bets $12.
Hero calls $12

River ($45.75) A 8 2 2 5

Hero checks
Btn bets $30, and is all in
Hero: ????



Hand 3

Hero dealt J J

Hero raises to $1.50 in the C/O.
Btn 3 bets to $4.50.
SB folds
BB folds
Hero calls.


Flop (9.75) 4 8 2

Hero checks
BTN bets $6.
Hero calls

Turn ($21.75) 4 8 2 2

Hero checks
Btn bets $12.
Hero calls $12

River ($45.75) 4 8 2 2 5

Hero checks
Btn bets $30, and is all in
Hero: ????

hand 1 you could 4 bet as you block AA and can get better to fold. calling 3 bet oop with AQ is rough.
hand 2 same thing. as played you can call it down.
hand 3, if these hands are all from the same villain then I will not answer

Regarding the comment on hand 3. They aren't real hands, but rather some common spots that come up. I mean, I could look up similar HH's and post those, but this just seems quicker. They aren't against any specific player, but rather the Bovada zone player pool (which I suppose you can consider 1 player).


I do agree that calling 3 bets oop with AQs can be rough. On one hand it seems like if we 4 bet, the only hands that fold for the most part are hands we are beating anyways, and only ones continuing are hands that are ahead of us. So, does that not allow villain to play perfectly against us? Though on the other side, it's going to be difficult for us to play perfectly against him oop, without initiative, with a sometimes dominated hand, in a 3 bet pot.


I have noticed that generally speaking people are nittier with their felting ranges on zone, so that could be an argument for 4 betting too I suppose. Like, I would guess the vast majority of the time I've got it aipf with another full stack they have AA or KK. Not as common for people to felt AK/QQ as reg tables, but that can change around the blinds/btn. If the player pool as a whole has a 3betting percentage that is not in balance with their AIPF %, then 4 bet bluffing seems like a good way to exploit that. Especially when we have so many blockers that it cuts down on their QQ+, AK combos by ~30%.

I don't think I fold 1 and 2 on Bovada really ever and I also play quite a bit of Zone there (almost exclusively 50NL atm). 3 is different cuz of texture and people not being as willing to fire off 3 on this runout with bluffs. Also A2s and A3s are pretty good 3b bluffing hands, and those beat us and we don't block any of those combo's in hand 3.

I never 4-bet/fold because it wastes our hand. 4-bet/gii could be good against very loose 3-bettors. I'm calling against 8% 3-bets. You are at the top of your range in those 3 hands, so I call unless I have reads that villian never / rarely fire river.

I personally find the higher the stakes go the more 4 bets can be effective without AA/KK. I added AQ to my 4 bet range in certain spots/vills and it has been effective. other times/vills AQ can be an easy fold to a OOP 4 bet. most of the time your dominated or flipping, which vill can think they are aswell with QQ-JJ, AK and fold

I mean, I think 4 bet bluffing is easier, and should bank a guaranteed profit. No real hard decisions. They 5 bet and we fold. Calling is harder, and puts us in more difficult positions. But, I would guess that calling the 3 bet is more profitable than 4 bet bluffing for someone that really knows what they are doing postflop in 3 bet pots oop without initiative.

So basically, maybe it could boil down to this: Take an honest look at how skilled you are in 3 bet pots. If they aren't your strong suit, 4 bet bluff. If they are your strong suit you can probably make more money calling the 3 bet, and playing postflop. Fair?

if your gonna call the 3 bet you must have position. as long as you call some 3 bets IP with low PPs, as sets will yield more than tptk or draws. but don't make a habit of it. widening the 4 bet range will help you with people 4-5 shoving on you when you have AA,KK, over a decent sample that is

Am I understanding right that there isn't a single hand you call 3 bets with OOP?

It just seems to me if we have a hand like JJ it's too valuable to turn into a bluff (4 bet/fold to a shove), and is way ahead of villains 3 bet range so folding is really weak. If we 4 bet all his worse hands fold, all the better ones continue.

I may have given that vibe. when If hero call like your JJ example oop, you will flop an over pair or have at least 1 higher card. you can stick around for the flop maybe turn. in my experience when you call like your JJ example and say you flop an over pair and call down your stack to lose to QQ. when the over card hits what if you call a cbet to station but are getting value owned and you stick around and face a turn bet...... position is the root of profit in especially in 6 max. the more you are tempted to make these calls and then call oop without owning vill will skim your profits. hoping im making sense. if you do from call 3 bets oop from time to time it should be pocket pairs and preferably against a hit or ditch type of vill

Well yeah it sucks when they have QQ+. But that's really only 0.9% of his potential holdings. If he's 3 betting 8% then only like 11% of his possible hands have us in a ****ty 80/20 spot right now. The rest of his hands we're ahead of. We may need to navigate some mediocre boards, which kind of sucks, but meh.

I mean, JJ isn't as fun oop as it is in position. But, it's still likely the best hand. What other options is there? Stacking off PF with it sucks. Wasting it on a 4 bet bluff sucks when there are far better(in the sense that they have blockers)/worse(In the sense that you're not really wasting it's value), hands to do that with like A3s.

Agreed,

call 1/2 and fold 3 riv

just quit worrying about calling 3 bets oop and do your best to play in position as much as possible. you may have to learn a longer and harder way about position.
ex. 2 identically skilled players are in a 6 max cash game and go heads up. not one of the players better or worse than the other..........who has the edge?

Lol, I understand position. And, you didn't really answer my question of "what other option is there?". Are you folding JJ in the c/o to a BTN 3 bet? Or are you 4 betting with no blockers?

you can call as long as you're good and disciplined post flop. if you aren't comfortable enough to yet then fold JJ. 3 bet sizing can influence calling aswell

Doing anything but calling is bad.

From gto point think we need to call some rivers. I will call second runout. 1 and 3 v can be barreling with backdoor equity which reaches on river.

Regarding hand 2, (ace high flop with AQ).

I feel like this is a board they are a lot less likely to 3 barrel bluff (in comparison to Q high board).

Like if villain has TT-KK on an ace high board, they prob aren't going to be going to turn those hands into bluffs and 3 barrel, and jam them. If villain has AJ he prob isn't going for 3 streets of value. If villain has 89s, well there are't many people that are going to 3 barrel jam to rep AK, to try and get folds out of, what looks like, AQ. Also, on that board our hand looks a lot more like what it is. As in we have an ace, and I'm not sure people are trying to bluff Bovada zone players off top pair (at least that doesn't sound like a winning proposition).

Both boards (A-high, and Q-high) we are only beating bluffs. People aren't 3 barreling either with worse for value generally speaking. But, I think people would be more likely to 3 barrel bluff the Q high board, because they can rep AA,KK, QQ in their range, and our range can have some KQ, AQ, JJ, TT type hands that don't feel like calling a shove.

Just stumbled across a Phil Galfond vid where he talks about the merits of calling vs. 4 bet bluffing AQ in a c/o vs. BTN scenario if anyone's interested. He touched on a lot of the stuff talked about in this thread.

24:20 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlqFD-cKw-I

I guess I think more towards being good by the river when calling JJ OOP. flops may be good but a lot can open up by the river if your not on point and thinking ahead of vill

1 and 2 are literally the easiest calls

Stop being scared of playing 3bet pots and OOP or you will end up like most of the nits on these forums

3rd hand is meh

ps : You can value 4bet AQos BTN v Blinds but rarely if ever against BTN and don't choose to 4bet "bluff" AQos just because it makes the hand easier. You should make plays which will make you the most money not make your life easier. The more difficult spots you get into then the better player you can become.

H1 H2 and H3 are all pretty easy calls assuming V bets perfectly balanced. But from my experience people at my limits are so so so value heavy on the H2 OTR, that I'm prettymuch folding everything but 88.