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A discussion on Bet Sizing A discussion on Bet Sizing

10-28-2014 , 09:00 AM
I guess one of my biggest (and possibly easiest to fix) leak is bet sizing. Often I don't really know how much to bet/raise on Flop/Turn/River, so I end up betting too much or too less.

After some (very brief) research on this topic, I found some articles that suggest to bet/raise as small as necessary to get villain to fold If I want to bluff, and as large as possible that villain is ready to call with worse if I want to extract value.

However, isn't this approach terrifically exploitable?

How do you decide which bet/raise size is appropriate?

Are there any good books/links/threads on sizing? I checked the concepts of the week, but didn't find anything.
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10-28-2014 , 09:20 AM
Don't overcomplicate things, you are playing the micros so forget about things like being balanced or exploitable and things like that. On the micros you should play as exploitative as you can since almost no one will see your eploitable plays.
For betsizing i usually cbet de flop 55% on dry flops by bluff, and sometimes depending on the villain i cbet even smaller for value, on the river if you feel they are relatively strong, at least on their minde, you can go really big for value sometimes on dry boards if you have TP with TP kicker, lets say AK and you know he has AT+ you can even overshove that you will get called a lot.
If you want them to fold on the river and you feel they are not that strong, but yet stronger than you, 3/4 pot has been working good for me. If you want to get a crying call just bet the same amount you did on the turn or close to it and you will also get called a lot.
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10-28-2014 , 11:04 AM
^Pretty much what he said in his first sentence.
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10-28-2014 , 12:07 PM
Well, ok, you are obviously right. But I don't want to play the micros forever. Thus, I am still interested in valuable information about this topic.
A discussion on Bet Sizing Quote
10-28-2014 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by $veno
Well, ok, you are obviously right. But I don't want to play the micros forever. Thus, I am still interested in valuable information about this topic.
You have to play the micros until you can not play the micros.

Trust me. If you can't beat the micros you won't be able to beat 50NL or 100NL.

Beating 10NL should be easy as hell once you gain a solid foundation of strategy.

My best advice is to not overthink 10NL. You can't apply advanced theory into 10NL a lot of the time because your opponents aren't at that level of thinking.

Just bet for value. Play TAG. Be aware of your position. Don't play back in the blinds. Raise and C-bet from button a LOT. Do that and you should beat 10NL soon enough.
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10-28-2014 , 12:29 PM
Go to options, make a bet size pot of whatever % you want to bet and press that every time you bet. Problem solved.
A discussion on Bet Sizing Quote
10-28-2014 , 05:38 PM
Two rules that imo can not be stated any simpler or more specific:
Bet for value as big as possible
Bet as a bluff as small as possible
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10-28-2014 , 06:11 PM
Lol, bet sizing is the most difficult skill to master in NLHE, so I don't think there are going to be any quick fixes. Everyone makes bet sizing mistakes.

Some basic concepts AFAIK:

-Bet big with a polarized range

-Bet big when your opponent's range is capped

-Remember that, when you have a non-polarized value betting range, your opponent's calling range will be a function of your bet-size, i.e., don't pot it with A7 on 7xx (as someone in another thread did) because you narrow villain's calling range down so much that you will often be value owning yourself. Bet an amount that targets a certain group of hands that you can get value from, given your hand.

Edit:

Also,

-Bet bigger when your hand is vulnerable (e.g., on a wet board) and smaller when your hand isn't vulnerable

Last edited by timidcynic; 10-28-2014 at 06:32 PM.
A discussion on Bet Sizing Quote
10-29-2014 , 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timidcynic
Lol, bet sizing is the most difficult skill to master in NLHE, so I don't think there are going to be any quick fixes. Everyone makes bet sizing mistakes.

Some basic concepts AFAIK:

-Bet big with a polarized range

-Bet big when your opponent's range is capped

-Remember that, when you have a non-polarized value betting range, your opponent's calling range will be a function of your bet-size, i.e., don't pot it with A7 on 7xx (as someone in another thread did) because you narrow villain's calling range down so much that you will often be value owning yourself. Bet an amount that targets a certain group of hands that you can get value from, given your hand.

Edit:

Also,

-Bet bigger when your hand is vulnerable (e.g., on a wet board) and smaller when your hand isn't vulnerable
Yeah, I might have oversimplified this leak, but I think following some very basic concepts can already improve your game and winrate. Your suggestions are exactly what I was looking for, so thank you.

Regarding the last point: When exactly is a board vulnerable for you? For example, do you already defend a flopped set by betting big when there is only a gutshot in villains range?
A discussion on Bet Sizing Quote
10-29-2014 , 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timidcynic
Lol, bet sizing is the most difficult skill to master in NLHE, so I don't think there are going to be any quick fixes. Everyone makes bet sizing mistakes.

Some basic concepts AFAIK:

-Bet big with a polarized range

-Bet big when your opponent's range is capped

-Remember that, when you have a non-polarized value betting range, your opponent's calling range will be a function of your bet-size, i.e., don't pot it with A7 on 7xx (as someone in another thread did) because you narrow villain's calling range down so much that you will often be value owning yourself. Bet an amount that targets a certain group of hands that you can get value from, given your hand.

Edit:

Also,

-Bet bigger when your hand is vulnerable (e.g., on a wet board) and smaller when your hand isn't vulnerable
You would think from the way this guy speaks he plays MSNL. Don't be fooled, he is generally recycling obvious information.
A discussion on Bet Sizing Quote
10-29-2014 , 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPE23
You would think from the way this guy speaks he plays MSNL. Don't be fooled, he is generally recycling obvious information.
What's your point? Clearly the information he posted wasn't obvious to OP and probably a lot of others that will read this thread.
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10-29-2014 , 09:58 AM
Something a lot of regfish overlook in 3/4 bet pots is pot geometry and deciding whether to go for 2 or 3 streets post flop. Ie, 4 bet pot - 45bb in the middle, going 1/3psb all streets is silky smooth. However, vs a fish 1/2psb followed by jam is pretty standard for value betting.
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10-29-2014 , 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by $veno
Regarding the last point: When exactly is a board vulnerable for you? For example, do you already defend a flopped set by betting big when there is only a gutshot in villains range?
A hand is vulnerable when your opponent's weak/air hands, or just their range in general, have a lot of equity vs. your hand.

Example, on 743 with two spades, 8d7d is a vulnerable hand. Any two overcards will have around 22% equity, and around 25% with a spade.

Contrast this with having AT on A93r. If the opponent doesn't have a pair, he will have very little equity on this board. So AT isn't vulnerable.

Generally, the more overcards there are to your pair, and the more drawish the board is (opponent can have lots of backdoors, gut shots, etc), the more vulnerable your hand is.
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10-29-2014 , 02:32 PM
when deviating your betsizing from what you might consider the norm (between 1/2 to 2/3pot in most cases) if you're going on the low end of this or the higher end of this

YOU ARE DOING IT TO EXPLOIT THE OTHER PEOPLE

they aren't exploiting you..... and if you think they are then just have a standard sizing w/ ur value and bluffs
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