the whole point with uber agressive players is that you can do one of two things: win with bluff raises IN POSITION vs the LAGs who fold to raises (which you do on the FLOP, with the right texture not the river with a terrible texture.), or win at showdown vs the LAGs who call raises, or 3 bet to try to outplay you.

this isnt how you beat a LAG.

Also a greatttttttttttttt thing about never donking is that when it checks around, you've actually leaked LESS information than anyone else at the table. Man I really should make a thread about this but I want to know if the moderot bot will lock because it's in some sticky that I can't be bothered to find.

So I guess when we're OOP against a LAG we can never play back at them.

Very interesting remarks.

So you're basically suggesting to play fit or fold vs. the LAG when you're OOP. Isn't that exactly the mistake the LAG profits from?

Edit: lol just saw shock's, didn't mean to be an ashole.

Re-edit: Shock: It's 42 vs 45 for any OP vs any two clubs. Actually pretty funny but I mean taking out 82cc, 84cc, 92cc, 94cc is probably reasonable.

I didn't say that. I said vs this villain there's no need to get out of line when we're going to have such an edge on him in other, less high variance spots.

Also I wasn't saying that QQ was a likely holding, I was just using it as an example of a strong hand that even if we did manage to get him off, there was no reason to attempt to do so in the first place.

do you make threads to discuss or do you make threads to brag?

literally every thread i've read of yours is posting some non-standard line then arguing with almost every poster that your line is correct

if you know it to be correct, why post?

Yea I sort of agree. Don't think we can be sure we have a big edge on him. We don't really know if he's a thinking LAG or some maniac fish, which is the precise reason I don't like this bluff.

I don't blame you for thinking this, but it's actually not at all the case. If you thought about my mentality for using this forum you'd understand. I take thousands of standard lines every day. If I posted every hand I played 98% of them would be mind numbingly dull, obviously. I'm not the type of person that seeks the affirmation when the standard lines **** me over.

When I take a non standard line I post it out of curiosity to see whether it's nonstandard but profitable or just wrong. By virtue of being non standard, most of the posters are gonna disagree with it. If I simply conceded that they were right, I gain literally nothing from posting because I already knew the position they were going to take as well as most of the arguments they would have used to defend that position.

I have no idea whether this bluff is +EV or not. To reach the truth you need to have lawyers on both sides of the case arguing and whenever I see a case worth arguing that has arisen whether in my play or somebody else's hand, I pick the side of the minority. It has no reflection on my actual beliefs or whether I would make that play myself. Nor are any of the hands I post nececelery real hands (but stating outright they're fake may reduce the # of smart comments I am likely to receive).

I'm a bit disappointed I actually had to spell that out, but not too disappointed. Anyway here's some fake results:

lol @ results

Yeah, it's the most money I've ever lost on a single hand.. I'm taking a short break from poker to understand his call and try to come to terms with it.

His call is easy to understand. He's a maniac fish and AQs is too pretty of a hand to fold.

this is wrong, i think.

?

and c/f flop. you can c/r, too, but we'll have to barrel so often that i'm not really thrilled about it since we don't even have any backdoors.

He never turns 7x,88,99 into a bluff and never folds one pair+. Is there a value hand you would even play like this? 22? quads? 54cc? Not many combos to rep

Sick call by him and results show you pretty well that your reads/beliefs were incorrect and villain is just clicking buttons. Wait to have a bigger sample and better reads next time

edit: lol @fake results. what's the point there?

I'd play all my flushes (mostly good ones since I 3bet the bad ones), boats and books like this. In the OP spoiler I explain how his river AFq is 83% and give an example of his range for betting rivers on scary boards, in a hand similar to this one in most ways except that he was likely facing more strength than in this one given how it played.

well the fact that you would play them like this isn't as important as the fact that you shouldn't play them like this. Also don't draw conclusions about his AFq based on 57 hands

Disagree with this. I think c/c c/c c/r is the optimal line with both 77 and 66 here.

maybe with a boat but it's only 6 combos... we have a flush more often than a boat on turn and we should raise it on that board. We can't assume that villain 3 barrels here when we have 57 hand sample

ya i agree we shouldn't have very many flushes in our range. Villain def should have more flushes than we do. I think its pretty safe to assume he's at least double barreling hands like AcKx and betting turn+river with something like TT.

he checks his overpairs back on a lot of river cards. On this river card he's not folding those to a raise enough. If we decide to bluff in this hand we should c-r turn and shove river imo. Will look stronger and makes our value range wider

never really thought of this line, but I think it is a better line now that I think about it.

I played a hand like this against a TAG 2 days ago. Except for that I showed up with a set and he couldn't lay down his AA.

those results are hilarious. obv you can't get this drooler to fold an overpair or a little flush when he's not capable of folding ace high. just calm down and catch a hand vs. this dude imo -- the more tiny pots he steals from you the more he'll think he can level you with aggression when you actually have TPTK.

I used to do this, probably out of my mind at the time.

grinning, to be a bit clear, if you want to make a play like this, you need a better read on your villain.

I think this line can be ok, but you need to make sure you know your villain is capable of making folds.

FWIW I take similar lines to get value out of big fish