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Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board

08-01-2010 , 11:30 PM
Villain was 44/39 over 57 hands. Hero has been 8/8. Click spoiler for more details.
Spoiler:

Villian bet 11/15 flops inc. 10/10 cbets, also bet 6/11 turns, 5/6 rivers. Steal from LP preflop was 5/6.

Hero was 8/8 over 37 hands, betting 0/2 flops, 0/2 turns and 0/1 rivers for whatever reason, probably because of the big loose passive fish in UTG and another in the BB.

10 minutes prior this hand took place (my only showdown up til then): I raise UTG with aces, called by fish in MP and Villian in SB, Villian donks 3/4 pot on 893hh flop, I call, MP min raises, he calls and I nearly fold but call, 7h turn checks around, 7d river sees Villian donking like 60% pot, I tank and make the call and MP folds (whew) Villian tables 44.


Here's the hand:

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 834629
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $50.00
Hero (SB): $81.75
BB: $28.75
UTG: $65.80
CO: $82.80

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with J A
1 fold, CO raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($4.50) 7 3 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4, Hero calls $4
He's literally cbetting 100% of his range here despite how nitty an image I have hoping to get me to call and barrel off on later scare cards. I call also drawing to scare cards I hope to raise him off.

Turn: ($12.50) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8, Hero calls $8
Not a good card for him to keep barrelling, although my image is so nitty at this table that he probably thinks he can keep me for another street and get rid of me on the river. On the other hand, based on stats alone he's only narrowed himself to the top 83% x 100% x 50% = 42% of his range, which I'm actually ahead of. I can see him doing this with the bare Ac though so I elect to c/r on the river instead given that some crazy villians 3bet all in here with Ac5x or whatever. Also, we both know his river bet frequency is insane, thus a c/r on a blank river credibly reps a straight / flush / boat better than a turn c/r does. So combining the scary board, his near certain 3rd barrel which I can raise all in and make more $$ than on this street, and finally the fact that once awhile my hand's actually good, I opt for a rare double float

River: ($28.50) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO requests TIME, CO bets $18, Hero raises to $67.75 all in
Perfect river card to continue execution of my plan. Sometimes he has total crap, sometimes he's turning 7x, 88, 99 into a bluff and sometimes he's b/f a straight or J/Q-high flush. He needs to fold around 60% of the time for it to be profitable and there's no way that good flushes and boats make up 40% of his range given his stats. So I shovel it in without much thought...

Comments? Concerns? Ridicules?

Last edited by grinningco; 08-01-2010 at 11:57 PM.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grinningco
sometimes he's b/f a straight or J/Q-high flush.
expecting this villain to fold a flush/straight is not goood
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:40 PM
Call down if you think he's bluffing here, he's not folding any piece of the board or any PP.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:42 PM
in no where in your whooole post id you post a distinct hand that villain had or a range of hands where you want to bluff off.

what hands are you trying to get him off of exactly. what is his hand. rather than 40% of his range. range of what?

you think he has ATC here? i cant follow you because you make no clear judgment of his range and what he has exactly and you want to fold.

and lol trying to make a fish fold with a river c/r.... not gonna happen he is going to call with bottom pair because he is a fish.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thr33bet
Call down if you think he's bluffing here, he's not folding any piece of the board or any PP.
Quote:
sometimes he's turning 7x, 88, 99 into a bluff
Is your typical 8/8 nit really bluffraising all in 30% of the time? No he has 66, 77, 33 like always
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:45 PM
If you had some kind of read on this guy that he was an aggro reg capable of folding rather than just some random LAG I would like this a lot more. I'm not sure this guy folds AA here.

It kinda sucks that villain has way more flushes in his range than you do, and he probably shouldn't be folding a big flush on the river here.

Oh, and I hate the turn peel.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grinningco
Is your typical nit really bluffraising all in 30% of the time?
does your typical fish really care?
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by immadeadbird
in no where in your whooole post id you post a distinct hand that villain had or a range of hands where you want to bluff off.
He did, last section of blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinningco
Is your typical nit really bluffraising all in 30% of the time?
this guy is playing 44/39, do you REALLY think he is paying attention to your image over 37 hands
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dint
He did, last section of blue.
oh i thought that was a joke....
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:48 PM
Firstly, we have *57* hands on villain and the one hand where we saw showdown played out completely differently to this. That said, in that hand he did show a propensity for making loose calls. I wouldn't exactly be actively looking for spots to bluff this dude.

Pre flop is a pretty easy 3bet for value, I think.

Flop is just basically a fold.

Villain bet three streets when checked to. If he's semi bluffing on the flop or turn, practically all of the draws got there. If he's valuebetting like 99 on the flop and turn I'm not expecting him to fold it ever. If he had checked back the turn then I can vaguely see a c/r on the river being profitable, but he didn't.

There's no need for this against this type of player. He's not thinking on a high enough level to get what you're trying to rep (and realistically, you're not repping all that much).
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by immadeadbird
in no where in your whooole post id you post a distinct hand that villain had or a range of hands where you want to bluff off.

what hands are you trying to get him off of exactly. what is his hand. rather than 40% of his range. range of what?
See above and read the analysis in blue for the River.

My call on the turn anticipated that river range I was trying to get to fold (and again, would make an extra barrel's worth of $ compared to a turn raise). Turn + river basically was 1 street to me - he was drawing to a 4~7 or club, I to everything else.

I don't think it's meaningful to assign a range for him on the flop given his stats.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh!
Firstly, we have *57* hands on villain and the one hand where we saw showdown played out completely differently to this. That said, in that hand he did show a propensity for making loose calls. I wouldn't exactly be actively looking for spots to bluff this dude.

Pre flop is a pretty easy 3bet for value, I think.

Flop is just basically a fold.

Villain bet three streets when checked to. If he's semi bluffing on the flop or turn, practically all of the draws got there. If he's valuebetting like 99 on the flop and turn I'm not expecting him to fold it ever. If he had checked back the turn then I can vaguely see a c/r on the river being profitable, but he didn't.

There's no need for this against this type of player. He's not thinking on a high enough level to get what you're trying to rep (and realistically, you're not repping all that much).
+1
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-01-2010 , 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh!
Firstly, we have *57* hands on villain and the one hand where we saw showdown played out completely differently to this. That said, in that hand he did show a propensity for making loose calls. I wouldn't exactly be actively looking for spots to bluff this dude.

Pre flop is a pretty easy 3bet for value, I think.

Flop is just basically a fold.

Villain bet three streets when checked to. If he's semi bluffing on the flop or turn, practically all of the draws got there. If he's valuebetting like 99 on the flop and turn I'm not expecting him to fold it ever. If he had checked back the turn then I can vaguely see a c/r on the river being profitable, but he didn't.

There's no need for this against this type of player. He's not thinking on a high enough level to get what you're trying to rep (and realistically, you're not repping all that much).
Good comment. Wondering, why is it that I don't rep all that much?

The pivot of the hand was his huge river betting frequency especially on scary boards (evidenced by that hand where he had 44, where all his opponents checked turn). If I have a flush or boat, which is the hand I'm trying to rep on the river (so many people slow play boats as a DEFAULT not to mention vs a LAG) I am never raising it on the turn because the guy is so aggro and turn raises are scary - either I'm raising the flop or the river.

Also plenty of nits are bad enough to make my river play with 8c9c...
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:05 AM
Quote:
If he had checked back the turn then I can vaguely see a c/r on the river being profitable, but he didn't.
Josh, I'm especially interested in your argument for this as I actually think it's much worse play (and we rep a lot less) if turn checks through and we c/r river. Seriously? A real hand that c/c flop, checks turn and river? And won't a ton of his hands (ex. 7x or QcQx) opt to check back turn and bluff catch the river?
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grinningco
See above and read the analysis in blue for the River.

My call on the turn anticipated that river range I was trying to get to fold (and again, would make an extra barrel's worth of $ compared to a turn raise). Turn + river basically was 1 street to me - he was drawing to a 4~7 or club, I to everything else.

I don't think it's meaningful to assign a range for him on the flop given his stats.
then your always FOS on rivers. wtf do you represent just flatting pre then checking flop or river?

your a nit 8/8 nit so 8.3% of poker stove range is 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+
ok what is your calling range of your 8%. ATo+ QJs+ 8s+

ok what range of that checks the flop or floats.... we have 8s+ and your ss draws.
88+,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,KcQc,QcJc 3.8% of hands

on what of those hands checks back turn.... 8s+. and may be if you really really want to be stupid you can say hey villian has air therefore i just flat with my Flush.

ok now assuming you think he has range what % of your hands EVER C/R RIVER EVER!!!!!!! when you put him on air on the turn. ZERO%!

if you didnt re-raise turn because you thought he had air. there is nooo ****ing way you are c/r river. and if you think he had the nuts on the turn there is a 100% change you are going to re-raise your flushes.

you rep nothing gtfo you have no idea what villain has, and what your going to do on different rivers.

your thought processes. wtf this fish is so loose im going to get FPS and c/r on this river, i dont know what he has on the flop because his range is sooo wide therefore im going to c/c c/c c/r because he tripple barrels with air every time on the wettest board possible when i have air. *River * ohh he must have a flush now and he is a fish and has to fold his flush.........

you sir are spew. however that said i think this woul have worked on reg fish and not jsut plain fish...... wtf are you doing weak tight and win.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:09 AM
We cannot ever have, say, 73 here. We're never getting to the river with 22. So the boats we're repping are essentially two combos of 77 and 66 and we're fairly unlikely to even get to the turn with 66 (in his eyes, maybe you might call him down with 66 here).

Surely we would raise with two overs and a flush draw on the flop? If not, then surely we would c/r a made flush on the turn because we're 150bb+ deep and we cannot depend on him to bet the river OOP? I know they're scary, but we just saw this guy call a flop raise with 44 on 893 with a FD three way. Plus we would need to build a pot which is going to be very difficult to do on the river.

You know you're a nit, but does he know that? This is 50nl and he's playing like a nutcase. He's probably whacking it to Brazilian shemale porn with one table open in the background. You have no idea what level this guy is on and it probably isn't a high one so if he has like 99 here he's just snap calling and he is most certainly never ever ever ever ever ever folding a flush. Ever.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:11 AM
grinning's line reps 77 or 66 very well.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grinningco
I don't think it's meaningful to assign a range for him on the flop given his stats.
Of course it is...

If you don't put him on a range, you're just clicking buttons
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:13 AM
Man this is ridiculously unnecessary. Btw why are you playing 50nl?
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh!
We cannot ever have, say, 73 here. We're never getting to the river with 22. So the boats we're repping are essentially two combos of 77 and 66 and we're fairly unlikely to even get to the turn with 66 (in his eyes, maybe you might call him down with 66 here).
Dude the 6 came on the turn. Even the nittiest nit cases will call the flop with 66 to a cbet of 10/10.

Quote:
Surely we would raise with two overs and a flush draw on the flop? If not, then surely we would c/r a made flush on the turn because we're 150bb+ deep and we cannot depend on him to bet the river OOP?
Lol How many times do I have to post the same observation. Did you read that hand where he donked into a UTG preflop raiser and loose passive MP minraiser on the river AFTER literally every draw hits. This is a guy who plays the players not the cards.

Quote:
You know you're a nit, but does he know that? This is 50nl and he's playing like a nutcase. He's probably whacking it to Brazilian shemale porn with one table open in the background. You have no idea what level this guy is on and it probably isn't a high one so if he has like 99 here he's just snap calling and he is most certainly never ever ever ever ever ever folding a flush. Ever.
You're a funny guy Josh, we should hangout some time.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dint
Of course it is...

If you don't put him on a range, you're just clicking buttons
He steals 83% of the time and cbets 10 hands out of 10. He's read somwhere in a book about the usefulness of the continuation bet and the power of position.

I mean if you have any shortcuts for mentally organizing / otherwise keeping track of 20K hand combose, please feel free to enlighten (seriously)
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:38 AM
So then you have assigned him a range, it's just a wide one....

If you put villain on ATC, you've still assigned a range -.- I don't mean work out every single possible combo he can have in his hand, but you definitely need to think about his range
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:40 AM
Quote:
Lol How many times do I have to post the same observation. Did you read that hand where he donked into a UTG preflop raiser and loose passive MP minraiser on the river AFTER literally every draw hits. This is a guy who plays the players not the cards.
I read that, but as I said, you don't know what level he's on and I think it's fairly unreasonable to assume that he's anything but a drooler who's just clicking buttons based on the 44 hand. You have a tiny sample on him and one actual hand where he was OOP as opposed to IP. For all you know he was basically saying "crap I only have 44, I can't call with this, ohhh wtf I BET".

I mean, hell, maybe you were right and he had like QQ here or something and laid it down. But in general I just disagree with how you went about this hand in pretty much every way. If villain is as bad as he looks we can basically just wait for TPGK and value town him. We don't need to be running extravagant double-float-followed-by-river-crai-bluffs vs anybody at 50nl.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by immadeadbird
then your always FOS on rivers. wtf do you represent just flatting pre then checking flop or river?

your a nit 8/8 nit so 8.3% of poker stove range is 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+
ok what is your calling range of your 8%. ATo+ QJs+ 8s+

ok what range of that checks the flop or floats.... we have 8s+ and your ss draws.
88+,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,KcQc,QcJc 3.8% of hands

on what of those hands checks back turn.... 8s+. and may be if you really really want to be stupid you can say hey villian has air therefore i just flat with my Flush.

ok now assuming you think he has range what % of your hands EVER C/R RIVER EVER!!!!!!! when you put him on air on the turn. ZERO%!

if you didnt re-raise turn because you thought he had air. there is nooo ****ing way you are c/r river. and if you think he had the nuts on the turn there is a 100% change you are going to re-raise your flushes.

you rep nothing gtfo you have no idea what villain has, and what your going to do on different rivers.

your thought processes. wtf this fish is so loose im going to get FPS and c/r on this river, i dont know what he has on the flop because his range is sooo wide therefore im going to c/c c/c c/r because he tripple barrels with air every time on the wettest board possible when i have air. *River * ohh he must have a flush now and he is a fish and has to fold his flush.........

you sir are spew. however that said i think this woul have worked on reg fish and not jsut plain fish...... wtf are you doing weak tight and win.
I read this completely befuddled like 3 times until I realized the problem is that we have different ideas of respecting initiative. I literally donk 0.00% of my hands on any street. Meaning I will never take an aggressive action when the last person to take an action was me and the action I took was a passive one. In my life I have never once called a bet on one street only to bet out on the next street before my opponent has had a chance to act. (For example on multiway flops the earliest position I bet out on is as 2nd to act)

I don't know if this is bad, but the idea behind is similar to never limping: I hate having to juggle lots of different ranges, when I donk I have to balance my donking range in addition to my checking, etc. (and given that I'm OOP it's probably also necessary to depolarize it as well). I mean being OOP is a deficit already and why compound it by leaking twice as much info as the other player. My checks are supposed to rep no info. I might make a thread about this to see how common the philosophy is, although udbrky will probably instalock. I suspect it's fairly common as most regs are likely to agree that keeping c/c and c/r balanced is headache enough without having to worry about leads. OTOH the guys at Poker After Dark limp all the time so... what do I know =P

So I didn't even take into consideration what my checks represent. My only decisions during the hand were call preflop, call flop, call turn and raise river and I think the stats speak for themselves as to why I repped the slow play / would slowplay if I had a real hand.

But yea, nice discussion, I enjoy it. Obviously I am only grandstanding (else I wouldn't have posted in the 1st place) and trying to balance the discussion by defending the line I happened to take since nobody else seems to like it.

Last edited by grinningco; 08-02-2010 at 01:00 AM.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote
08-02-2010 , 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh!
I read that, but as I said, you don't know what level he's on and I think it's fairly unreasonable to assume that he's anything but a drooler who's just clicking buttons based on the 44 hand. You have a tiny sample on him and one actual hand where he was OOP as opposed to IP. For all you know he was basically saying "crap I only have 44, I can't call with this, ohhh wtf I BET".

I mean, hell, maybe you were right and he had like QQ here or something and laid it down. But in general I just disagree with how you went about this hand in pretty much every way. If villain is as bad as he looks we can basically just wait for TPGK and value town him. We don't need to be running extravagant double-float-followed-by-river-crai-bluffs vs anybody at 50nl.
Avoiding making profitable plays, just because they're bluffs is bad poker imo. Not saying this play is profitable tho.

Just like to note that he probably has more flushes in range than overpairs.
Bluff Checkraise All In for 160BB vs. Hyper LAG on a Awesome Board Quote

      
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