Keep saying this like its true when the guy analyzing things quantitatively is talking in terms of p < .0001...

Not sure if I meet your qualifications, but I can tell you there are specific red flags to look for in a response to accusations and Doosh managed to raise every one of them.

I'm not going to post a "how to properly lie to fraud investigators" guide, but I don't think I'm giving away any trade secrets by posting examples of what not to do here. Someone trying to mislead may try to paint themselves as a victim, possibly attack their accuser, or be excessively open in attempt to imply honesty. Doosh tripped over all of these hurdles (and others) in his very first response.

You really should take your own advice and stop posting. You said you've spoken to lawyers, but you should fire them if they haven't advised you likewise. Posting implied threats (datamining) just raises more red flags to any investigators 888 may have looking into this.

This is begging the question. It's not a legitimate form of argument to presuppose what you're trying to prove, in an effort to prove that very same thing.

You might just as well have said "Someone wrongly accused on a public forum might present themselves as being the victim, possibly attack the accuser, and be very open and honest in an effort to demonstrate their innocence."

In a fraud investigation / prosecution, I believe the types of flags you're talking about are just that - flags or indicators used by the investigators that they've something worth investigating.

I very much doubt they themselves constitute evidence of guilt or innocence, or are admissable in court as such.

It seems however that in this thread, you'd like to present them to us as somehow evidence of guilt.

This is a public forum, and I feel that posts like your own which attempt to determine guilt based upon the tone of the language in the accused's posts undermine the possibility of an impartial and objective investigation taking place here.

The fact is that currently no "Supreme Court" exists where such allegations of cheating can be properly investigated or tried.

The 2 + 2 community has in the past demonstrated, that in the absence of proper regulation, and in a climate where the poker sites themselves cannot be trusted, that it is indispensable in uncovering, and investigating cheating.

Let's not pretend however that a thread such as this in any way constitutes something akin to a court, or an impartial jury of Doosh's peers. What's happening here is not a single-minded and objective examination and analysis of the facts.

Anyone, can on a whim, come here and anonymously post whatever damning conclusions they like. Typically in threads like this, this begins to happen immediately irrespective of whether any good evidence has actually been presented. The analogy of a "witch hunt" is most definitely a pertinent one to make.

In future, I'd like to see a sub-forum dedicated to cheating allegations, and one which is moderated in a way appropriate to the nature of the content being discussed. Premature verdicts of guilt or innocence serve no purpose other than to devalue what should otherwise be an indispensable resource of the poker community.

Additionaly as Doosh has pointed out, there is a real issue when it comes to to the ability for anyone to come here in public yet anonymously, and publish allegations which can seriously damage peoples' lives and reputations. It's a difficult issue to resolve - there are arguments both for and against this - but the issue is there, and in future if the 2 + 2 community is going to be responsible and mature one, it should at least address it.

it seems if this is some freak of variance it should be fairly easy to show that if doosh gives up hand histories. If he can show himself getting a disproportionate amount of 72o etc on the button when benkar is in bb with a weak hand then he can clear his name. If he's shown repeatedly raising a certain hand OTB when benkar is in the blinds with a weak hand and folding the same hand when benkar has a strong hand he's gonna look pretty guilty. I'm not jumping on a guilty verdict bandwagon but ffs, if yr not, should be easy to prove so it doesn't look good if you can't/won't. I think either post offering to give up HHs to 1 or 2 trusted people to look over to show why this freak of variance has occurred or admit to the collusion. Every post you make denying collusion will make you look worse if it comes out that you are guilty. If you did something wrong then you gotta face the consequences unfortunately and you'll get more respect the sooner you own up. If you did nothing wrong then sucks to be you but get this mess sorted out quickly, if yr reputation is important to you as you say then should be not much hassle to offer up the HHs and clear your name.

What does variance have to do with this? As several people have mentioned, the P value or likelihood of these events happening randomly is far more important than citing the number of hands involved.

Or you could own up to the fact that you were cheating. Human beings are pretty forgiving and admitting what you did along with an apology would go a long way with many people. I'd venture to say that most of the posters in this thread including myself have done something incredibly stupid in their lives. Denying it and having to live with that for the rest of your life only makes it worse.


It would make sense to save on rake. Why would you throw away money, no matter how it compares to the stakes you're playing? I'm sure you're well aware how quickly rake adds up and the impact it has to everyone's bottom line regardless of the stakes you're playing. Maybe you were trying to save on rake, maybe you weren't, but I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense.

DooshCom, how about another post with the promise it is your last response?

I hope 888-team make an investigation about deep 5k/10k/20k NLH tbls when both were playing and shoving light preflop as well.

If you are going to post saying that it is your last post and then choose to come back and post again, the least you can do is address the substantive work done showing the probability of collusion to be extremely high (or at least the bet proposal that might actually get you a quick payout and vindication).

It reads like you are just trying to flick at flies without addressing the elephant in the room. Maybe that is the approach you are using with 888 in the hopes that their investigators are easily distracted and not terribly informed or intelligent. Who knows, you might just get lucky.

I wasn't going to comment until I read this, but I played with the two of them at 250-500 PNF 3-handed, and then NL20k deep short-handed with Benkerel and Dooshcom (they sat in the same gap setup).

They were not getting it in light vs other regs, just vs each other in the sort of hands you would not expect to see at those stakes, for example, like getting AJ allin preflop for more than 20k (100bbs+) preflop after only min opening preflop, then 4bet/calling, MP v blind.

I do hope this is looked into it.

99% sure that this both guys are cheating

if praios says he's a scumbag then it's 99% confirmed.

so why doesn't he just do the 50k thing if he's innocent - in the other thread he basically laughs off the 10k ticket as next to nothing so 50k wouldn't be so much of a burden (to him anyway) for someone who "as a bracelet winner" - where future sponsorship would far exceed this 50k? why not just do it?

oh i forgot - cos he's a cheat and this would prove it?

It is amazing how the replies by the "accused" in this thread match the form taken in the Girah scandal. I guess human nature is universal: when cornered scammers respond in an almost identical fashion.

I agree with everything you said. I didn't post regarding the red flags until someone asked, but even then you are right I probably shouldn't have. I only posted the most obvious ones which most people I think instinctively recognize anyway.

DooshCom just answer YES or NO -- did you multiaccount against OP and others?

Let's just hear the answer to that first. ONE WORD ANSWER.

Then, we can get onto whether you colluded.

Honestly the biggest red flags were what was missing in his response, but again I'm not going to post a tutorial for anyone's future reference. I agree with the post below yours, I probably shouldn't have posted at all.

If you read the thread prior to an uninterested third party posting evidence, it was actually the lack of "piling on" that was remarkable. The fact that successful HS players will make decisions for thousands based only on their instincts, yet give almost no weight as evidence to the instincts of other successful players is quite impressive to me.

I think HS poker decisions are never this simplistic.

In the event that they were:

I think its a good thing there hasn't been much hounding about this case. I think most HS guys would agree that some guy's reputation needs more than 'instinctual belief' to condemn him than what it takes to stack someone.

btw not necessarily on the side of the accused here. I think the investigative findings are substantial and compelling.

I totally agree with you, I just felt that the accusation that HSNL had conducted a witch hunt in this thread deserved a rebuttal. Thankfully yours was better than mine.

I would think if they were cheating as a team, the button should push way way lighter than GTO as he no longer has to worry about the bb calling him. If they were sharing hole cards I would also expect him to push more often when the bb has a trash hand (preventing sb pushing lightly into him). Also button would be folding more often when bb has a big hand.

This is exactly what everyone competent ITT has been saying. The bolded part is most important and is what jaytorr's analysis addresses.

Right, I saw that. Just sayin' huge edge to be made on pushing the button light. Probably more than folding the button when bb has a hand.