4bet pots are hard 140BB Deep - to cbet or not? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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4bet pots are hard 140BB Deep - to cbet or not?

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06-26-2019 , 03:52 PM

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

I Thought preflop was interesting. I think Snowie (I remember Ionu posting this) likes to 4bet these types of hands the deeper we get? Thoughts?

Villain is 3betting 16% from the SB over 734 hands (12/76 attempts)

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
HERO ($9.47) [VPIP: 26.5% | PFR: 22.3% | AGG: 33.2% | 3-Bet: 10.7% | Hands: 82720]
CO ($5.52) [VPIP: 33.3% | PFR: 22.2% | AGG: 22.2% | 3-Bet: 7.7% | Hands: 36]
BTN ($5.81) [VPIP: 35% | PFR: 17.5% | AGG: 32% | 3-Bet: 11.8% | Hands: 41]
SB ($7.17) [VPIP: 31.3% | PFR: 21.8% | AGG: 41.9% | 3-Bet: 6.3% | Hands: 726]
BB ($5.00) [VPIP: 25.6% | PFR: 20.4% | AGG: 35% | 3-Bet: 12.1% | Hands: 944]
UTG ($5.17) [VPIP: 20% | PFR: 15.7% | AGG: 28.1% | 3-Bet: 7.4% | Hands: 5998]

Dealt to Hero: 6

UTG Folds, HERO Raises To $0.15, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Raises To $0.41, BB Folds, HERO Raises To $1.02, SB Calls $0.61

Hero SPR on Flop: [2.94 effective]
Flop ($2.09): 7

SB Checks, HERO ?

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06-26-2019 , 04:33 PM

291

adept

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 897

Don't think preflop makes much sense to be honest. Think something like 1010+ and then some AJs+ makes more sense depending on how often they flat the 4bet. SB 3 bet ranges versus MP are usually pretty strong though, don't really see any reason not to flat with 66 at 150bb effective. 66 as a 4bet isn't really pushing any kind of equity IMO, regardless of SB 3betting 16%. Seems a bit unnecessary, better hands to use I feel.

Postflop, no idea what to do. Probably bet 1/4 and see where things go.

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06-26-2019 , 04:41 PM

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by 291

Yeah I'm not pushing equity - its a bluff.

66 has the potential to make an unexpected huge hand in a 4bet pot- seems like a good candidate to 4bet bluff.

Also middle pairs/suited hands go up in value the deeper we get.

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06-26-2019 , 04:46 PM

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

If I recall the instance when snowie wanted to 4b small with small/mid pairs was in a squeeze spot and you were the pfr and ip vs the squeezer in the blinds

hj vs sb, I think we just 4b AA/KK/AKs and some AXs that we're not calling and that's enough

is this your standard 4b size? what's our range otf?

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06-26-2019 , 05:03 PM

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

Oh okay- would this be okay COvsSB then? Or is it only specifically vs a squeezer.

I think my range changes since we are 140BB +

4bet range would be 66/77 at a higher frequency than 88/99 because I will mostly call with 88/99.

A2s/A3s

Then monsters like AA/KK/AKs.

Yeah my typical 4bet size IP is 2.5x. Thoughts on that?

Last edited by DooDooPoker; 06-26-2019 at 05:10 PM.

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06-26-2019 , 05:12 PM

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,431

Not much reason to be 4b this.

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06-26-2019 , 05:16 PM

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

Not much reason to be 4b this.

Calling is a mistake though correct? I thought HJvsSB3bet we should be only defending 88+ for pocket pairs?

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06-26-2019 , 05:17 PM

ionutd

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Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Yeah my typical 4bet size IP is 2.5x. Thoughts on that?

I think more like 3x ip when deeper is higher ev but don't quote me on that.

checked snowie and the difference betweeen 1/2p (~2x) and pot (~3x) is drastic. it basically refuses to 4b 2x anything but AA and a few bluffs, while at 3x it's 4b AA/KK/AKs and A9s-A2s at 100% freq. there's some K9s/AJo/ATo about 1/3 of the time and 66-88 at 10%

I would just call any mid/small pp ip

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06-26-2019 , 05:29 PM

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

Nice thanks for that.

I did figure 2x would be bad but didn't realize the difference was that huge between 2x vs 3x 4bet sizing.

This isn't a typical opponent either so I wanted to 4bet at a higher frequency since his SB 3bet was sky high.

Good to know A2s-A9s are 4bet at 100% frequency, I'll keep that in mind in the future.

10% FTW!

Thoughts OTF? small cbet?

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06-26-2019 , 05:55 PM

#10

ionutd

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Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

I'm really not sure about cb
I think v has range advantage since our range is all over the place on this board if we 4b AA/KK/AKs , 77/66 and A5s-A2s and we might need to x pretty often
think we just bet the premiums and 77 and x the rest

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06-26-2019 , 05:57 PM

#11

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

True he definitely has more Qx then us. What do you think Villain's range is here?

Like 88-QQ - AKs/AKo - ATs/AJs/AQs - KQs - and then maybe some JTs/T9s at a low frequency?

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06-26-2019 , 06:21 PM

#12

ionutd

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Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

yeah maybe AQo/KJs/QJs, he seems kinda fishy and the 4b is small compared to stacks

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06-26-2019 , 08:07 PM

#13

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,431

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Calling is a mistake though correct? I thought HJvsSB3bet we should be only defending 88+ for pocket pairs?

Calling is most definitively the best option in the lack of additional information. Our opponent's sizing is very small and we can continue here pretty liberally.

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06-27-2019 , 01:54 AM

#14

Travbana

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,573

What is the purpose of min 4b pre? Villain is never folding and we are just building a bigger pot OOP with a hand that doesen't do well against his 4b calling range? ( I play Omaha so dont hate

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06-27-2019 , 08:14 AM

#15

291

adept

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 897

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

66 is too good of a hand to bluff with versus such a small 3bet IP at 140bb. Also if he 5bets you have kind of killed your equity in this hand unnecessarily.

If middle pairs go up in value the deeper we get then why are you making the pot bigger and reducing stack depths? It's somewhat contradictory logic.

66 won't flop a set enough of the time to make a huge hand being much of a consideration, especially versus a weak range that won't pay us off often enough when hit a set.

Against this opponent you should look to widen your 4 bet value range rather than widen your 4bet bluffing range with hands that are better as calls.

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