Throwgood Marshall is acceptably hilarious. Just making a lazy pun from a legal term(Quid Pro Bro, etc.) is terrible.

Sandlot Supra

I don't get it

Used to go to those Quizzo things all the time. Best name I ever heard was something like "George Washington had a Magical Wooden Taint that Spit Rainbows and Told no Lies"

i think u mean u dont geTTT it

That's cold-blooded, Karak. lol

lol i thought that was autocratic for some reason and i was gunna follow it up with a penn state/penn joke but now i realize who it is

how true are the horror stories i've been hearing about a lack of jobs in the legal market

Have to get back to you in 6 months when I finish. Pretty sure I'm going to be hiring myself though, so prospects are looking good.

It depends, it isn't pretty, however you can control some of it. For example, widen your horizon. Find a niche area that you can practice in. Too many people complain that there are no jobs but if everyone only wants to work in corporate law, well then there is a glut there.

Additionally start building your "Network" now while still in Law school or better while in your Sr. Year in College. If you are already out of school but considering returning, then you should also build your network. Facebook, Twitter, blogs are not a joke. Start by using Twitter, follow good lawyers who are either tweeting good content or are Retweeting it. Then add a thought OCCASIONALLY of your own.

Start looking at your Facebook friends. Is everyone there that ought to be there? If they are smart and hardworking, then you might want to move them onto LinkedIn if you can. Use that as a CRM to keep in contact with your network. Figure out things you can do with these folks. Send Birthday cards or e-messages or Facebook messages. Anniversary too. When you start Law school, just jot a note or two on your page or blog about something you learned that you didn't know about before. Keep things short, but write write write.

Ok now you are approaching third year, think to yourself, who is my Network, what do they need in their personal and or business life? Homeowners? Real Estate Lawyer. Lot of parents with young or tween kids? Criminal, Education and Family Lawyer. Business people? Business organizations and tax lawyers. Unionists or trade shop owners? Labor and employment lawyer. Farmers? Agricultural lawyers Forclosure and Bankruptcy.

Volunteer a lot, or work with the poor? Personal injury lawyer. Poverty Law, Civil rights.
Work for people who work for contractors who work on government contracts? Qui Tam or Whistleblower law.

As you approach the third year, ask your network, what would they be comfortable referring to you. What kind of law do they think you might at which you might be good.

As the middle of that third year begins you need to go to these contacts and ask them for help in the job search. Ask if they will be wiling to contact their lawyer or companies lawyer, find out if they will refer you to them.

Now before any of you jump on me because Job search starts in the beginning of second year, I know that. I know that certain firms will be seeking employees and doing on campus interviewing etc. Those are jobs you should be applying for, however you also need to have other options.

It is never too soon to begin to build your network. Especially you want to be able to go to employers with a book of business.

ACShark,

As much as I enjoy your posts, you are possibly giving dangerous advice. Things aren't the same starting out now as they were for you. One cannot overcome this job market by super networking, finding a niche and combing his FB friends. It's not that easy anymore.

Law school costs more, more people are going into debt for it, the market is massively oversaturated and the industry just suffered its greatest economic collapse in the history of the nation. One simply cannot work his way to financial independence now. Couple that with the fact that $$ wise you can do just as well with an undergraduate degree.

Honestly, going to a TTT or lower without a lock job (from a family member) or full ride at this point is very close to financial suicide. If you graduate in the bottom half of your class, no amount of networking is going to get you a paying job. There's just too many better qualified candidates out there.

For laterals or people with experience with the industry, I think it's rather good right now, especially for certain fields.
For new grads with no experience or connections, I think it's pretty horrible.

I think there's always room for the "go-getter" type that ACShark posts about, but it's much easier to think you're going to work that hard than it is to actually do it. Even in this market there are so many students who are unemployed but don't actually look that hard for jobs. The days of jobs coming to the law student are over; you have to hustle hard these days unless you're at the tippy top.

That said, there are tons of well qualified, smart, hard-working students who don't have jobs or good jobs. I certainly agree with Karak about TTT schools; stay away unless your lifelong dream is to be a lawyer, and even then you should probably wait a few years and reapply.

It's been a while since I took the MPRE, but aren't judges supposed to disqualify themselves from cases in which they're also a litigant?

Also, what's the deal with mens rea? Why isn't there a womens rea? I mean, it's the 21st century, come on! Am I right folks?

Karak,
I agree the market for the new attorney in an established law firm is weak. What I am suggesting is that, for the person who is willing to suck it up for a while, there is light at the end of the tunnel. (btw we said the same thing about how it is worse now than it was for those guys who were 20 years or so before us too. We were also right just as you are. It still doesn't render it impossible or even dangerous.) The highest earning guy from my then TTT law school couldn't identify the Bill of Rights in the Constitution but he kills it money-wise everyday. He started in Toxic Tort work when there was NO money in it. He is one of the highest paid lawyers on earth. No we didn't go to Harvard, we went to Hofstra. I have said it before. CREAM RISES. BE CREAM. He may have been last in the class by the way. No one ever asked me my class rank or how I did on any class after I went into private practice. They asked "do you know how to handle XYZ?" I answered: "I will before we ever hit the courtroom. I learn fast. It only took me 6 years to get through a year of law school" Then I would wink. I would assure them that I could handle their matter and that I would also have another attorney look at my work just to have a second set of eyes on it.

Nowadays, Bankruptcy, Foreclosure, Civil rights, Internet law, are all cooking. Real estate is dead...for now, so you move on to another related area Mortgage refinance. Debt Structuring. Whatever floats your boat. About 8-10 years ago, there was a lawyer who only wanted to argue appeals in the US SUpreme Court. No one except the Solicitor General has that job. He wasn't the Solicitor General. He stuck to his guns wrote amicus learned how to fish for the cases and viole' la a new specialty was created.
Same for Asbestos and Mesolthelioma cases. I never heard of the disease in 1984, nut I helped win a 3+Million dollar settlement for a client 10 years ago. It was my only Meso case, but I brought it in and I associated my friend and we won. I was 42 years old. Only 15 years or so out of law school. It was my first Million dollar case. The next would come about 9 years later, now, I have 3 in the oven. (amazing how those suckers can multiply)

Everyday I watch in the courthouse, as young lawyers with gumption are picking up cases right and left while the old war horses who could likely kick each one of the young guys a**es are dying off, dinosaur style, cause they either couldn't or wouldn't keep up. When we were young, I'd run off with my wife to an ABA or NACDL or ATLA meeting. "Why are you spending the money and your free time going there?" they'd ask."Our CLE around here is cheaper and just as good."

Yeah I already knew what they were teaching. I'd been seeing it every day. No I went to Vegas, Orlando, DC, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco and learned what the people at the ABA or NACDL were doing. CUTTING EGDE WINS CLIENTS AND CASES which begets more and better clients and cases.

Of course the best position to be in (after inheriting a position or getting one in the job market) is to find a lawyer who is older and is seeking a younger guy to train and maybe purchase his practice. If that older lawyer will provide rent abatement and basic services, then I think it is not as hard as people make it out to be. Really what has changed for the small or medium size lawyer? We all get our cases in the beginning from family and friends. Who else is going to give a guy just out a case?

We also all make friends, how many and how we work on them to provide cases is a different story. If you want to make money you have to work the contacts and you have to ASK FOR THE WORK. Too many think it is low hanging fruit. It isn't, even wills are a tough sell now a days.

Yes I know that you have loans. but so does everyone. Learn to put off your enjoyment a while longer. Used cars, Staycations, no IPad, old laptops, a regular phone instead of the latest I-thing. Gym memberships? Only if you are getting work out of the gym otherwise go pick up stones.

A lot of you will have to find 2d jobs. Night shift stuff. Find Jobs with access to Wifi and a lot of slow time (clerk in an all night Dunkin for example) so you can work on your cases. I drove cabs, worked night construction, and was a watchman.

If you see bills piling up as you head into law school, instead of a summer abroad or a trip to the WSOP, get a job on a construction site or doing handyman work. After work, drink Genne not Guinness but hang out with the guys, Construction accident work is very lucrative. If they know you and like you, well they may call you "Professor" or "College Boy" during working hours, but they will come to see you later when they need you and you will be repaid in Spades.

Use the money you make to start paying down bills not buying a car. Oh and while I am on the issue, It is not legal or ethical, to ask for or receive a portion of fees for referring a case when you are not a lawyer. Doesn't mean that the guy to whom you bring work from the construction site can't sign a contract with you for the following summer guaranteeing you $$$$$ for your work next year. Lets face it, we can all name a summer associate or three who got their job because Daddy or Mommy is in charge of a client of the firm and could move their business to a firm that sees things as they do... that their son is the second coming of Learned Hand (mixing thread metaphors )

Speak to every pastor and rabbi in the neighborhood. "I am new. I handle small claims matters for 125 dollars per appearance, 250 for a traffic appearance no matter how many tickets. I write basic no trust wills for 300 per will AND I will give a free upgrade in 5 years if they are members of the parish/congregation." Again none of these kinds of cases take much time, 1-3 hours each. Now multiply by a number of cases a week. 2 small claims, 2 traffic appearances and 2 wills brings in 1.25K a week or 5.3K a month or 65K a year.

Be inventive. Auction off a service for a charity preferably on the Radio. They are all doing stuff for Christmas now, Offer to represent a buyer at a closing must be a first time buyer in XYZ County. You do a good deed, *sorry for the pun, you get publicity, and you make friends with people who run charities. (Often they know rich people who occasionally need a little dust busted.)

Hell if it isn't against the rules in your state do it on EBAY.

Take Paypal, credit cards, cash. Keep your office expenses to less than 40 percent of what you bring in. Add up your loans, rent at home, office costs and what you need to live on to survive, and divide by 20 hours a week. Then do it by 30 then 40. When that amount comes to about 100-200 an hour, you are where you need to be. Remember to be active in the bar. Meet lawyers, ASK FOR WORK. not a job. WORK.

Go back to the law school, ask the profs if there is anyone they know of in need of a hard working lawyer who doesn't over-charge. No you aren't there asking for a job or a reference, you want to know if there is a law student or a person who called them seeking advice that you can advise, preferably for a small fee. If you were a good student (not Law Review but a solid guy/gal) they will not only send you stuff, they will mention it in the faculty room too.

Bring your best moneyed hardest cases to your mentor. Ask him if he will either help you set a fee, take the case and cut you in, in exchange for your work, or take a portion (25% or less) as a consultant and appearance fee. IF you meet the client with him, and he charges more, then your fee goes up too.

Learn edification. I can tell you how great I am, but if someone else does it I have instant credibility. Work it our with your friends and mentors that they talk you up in front of potential clients. Do it for them too. Do it unsolicited. "Wow Bob, Tony is a great lawyer. Good choice. You are LUCKY to be in such good hands." They will catch on and do that for you too.

Learn not to reinvent the wheel. Get on list-serves and ask the people there if they have a form for what you are doing and are willing to share same. Often on List-serves people just post an attachment. If you haven't heard of SOLOSEZ find out what it is and join (it's free).


I completely agree Karak, it is a jungle out there, however walking into that jungle without a map and a plan is crazy. You aren't going to shoot an Elephant with a pellet gun, but kill enough quail and you will eat pretty good.

AC


BTW unless you have tried it, don't knock it. I did it. I did it 28 years ago and again 10 years ago. It was easier the second time around, but it was still tough. I expect that more will fail than will prosper, however that is true of everyone of life's endeavors. I can only assure you of one thing. Those that do not try will never succeed. Those that only half way commit, will fail half way in. Those that "Burn the Boats" go ALL THE WAY, and succeed, will have everyone else looking at them years from now and saying "why didn't I do that."

I don't think he "heard it" at all. The ADA figured out what happened pretty quick and dismissed the ticket so he wouldn't fry with the cop who did so deservedly. It was not trespass to pick Dandelions on the side of the Southern State Parkway in the 1950's.

do not go to law school unless you're at harvard yale or stanford or a t14 with a good scholarship.

if you're gonna go balls to the wall and network your ass off like AC shark suggests you might as well bust your ass making it in an industry that doesn't start you off 200k in the hole.

I think AC Shark's advice assumes that you really want to be a lawyer, not someone who wants to make it in any old industry. If you don't have that specific desire, and really have it, then doing all that hustling it obviously a waste of time, in part because people will see that you don't have that passion.

I have a friend who finished in fall 2009, took the MO bar in early 2010, and started on the path that AC Shark is recommending. Within 2 months he was picked up by a PI firm (that was his dream) and he is loving it. So going solo right out can be seen as a job search strategy in its own right.

I suspect that most schools do a very bad job of preparing students (conceptually as well as practically) for the amount of marketing and professional development that lawyers actually have to do. The career advice seems mostly built around refining your resume and mass-mailing. If you can't be more creative than that, especially coming out of TTT like mine, you are going to be in a lot of trouble. When I was in school, I took Public Interest Law, and our professor made each of us find a mentor in some public interest area that we were interested in, tag along to a hearing, interview or something, and work a few hours for that mentor. She devoted a good portion of the classes to advising us on getting our careers going - that was really the only time I got advice from a professor in that vein, other than talking after class to the adjuncts who were in private practice by day (which you all should be doing). The advice I got from the practicing lawyers was basically the same as AC Shark's. The main rainmaker in my firm exhibits that kind of hustle, even though he is well established and markets his efforts to a narrower audience.

The one caveat is that in your effort to snag clients, you have to watch out for the ones who are nothing but trouble to you. If you are the 4th attorney the person has come to/been through, chances are that it's not all of the other lawyers who were the problem. There are people who will agree to your services at your set rate and then try to expand the scope and act angry if you insist that you get paid extra. There are people who say that money don't matter - they're in it for the principle - until your invoice comes in. They will try to re-negotiate your fees with you by criticizing your work, even if it was top quality. It is easy to feel sorry for people who can't afford your retainer or to pay your fixed free up front, but you are often playing with fire. Problem clients suck up time, money and resources, and distract you from the good ones. They can even land you in front of the Office of Disciplinary Counsel, and from what I have heard, defending against frivolous claims is not that fun.

As for law school exam advice, practice tests are the way to go, even if you are just outlining answers. The more practice you get spotting issues and writing out rules, the better off you will be. I agree with Karak that in most classes a solid understanding of the 5 most importantant concepts will be enough to set you apart from the class, and combined with a superior understanding of how to structure a law school exam answer, should be enough to put you at or near the top. Professors are not going to devote a significant portion of an essay question to an esoteric topic. However, they may use knowledge of nuances and minor rules to separate the very top from the top. So by ignoring subjects outside the hit parade you are potentially capping yourself. My ConLaw II professor used to answer the question "Do we have to know this for the exam?" with "Well, one of your classmates will know it. You make the decision as to whether you want to as well." Most of my professors didn't care if we cited to specific cases (Con Law is a notable exception), but I found it helpful to reference cases by subject (the case where the woman sued the dancing instructor) when doing what we called "rule explanation" or explaining the countours of a specific element.

Lowely 1L here. Anyone have any advice for crim law? It seems way too easy so I figure I must be doing it wrong. My outline looks something like this:

Larceny
a. Trespassory
b. Taking and
c. Carrying away of the
d. Personal property
e. Of another
f. With intent to steal it

And then the relevant cases we discussed (although professor said we are not responsible for knowing the cases?) Kinda confused tbh. Professor is so damn laid back he has lulled me into a false sense of security. Final isnt until Dec. 9 so I still have plenty of time. Any advice on how to approach it would be greatly appreciated.

Have you looked at your prof's practice tests and how they're structured?

When the professor says you are not responsible for knowing the cases, it means he would rather you not waste time citing case names - instead just state the rules and apply the facts. If referring to a case helps you explain a rule, then feel free to refer to it. If he gives you a fact scenario that is similar to a case but contains a key difference that changes the result, then comparing/contrasting the facts of that case and your question would be helpful. The key is not to get bogged down with details - like Karak said a few posts back, state the law, apply the law.

I think it helps to think of the typical crim law essay as a dialogue between the prosecutor and defense. You are often going to get a fact pattern that shows some sort of crime spree or scenario where multiple crimes may have been committed. First think like a prosecutor. What crimes could be charged? Be aggressive - if there is a chance that the charge could stick, write it. If there are more than 2 perps, think about whether there is a conspiracy, or how accomplice liability might play in. Also think about whether there could be any attempts. For each crime, go through the elements - that is your rule statement. Then match up the facts to the elements.

After you discuss a crime from the prosecutor's point of view, attack it from the defense side. Are any elements questionable? What about the mens rea? If the facts suggest that the elements have been met, what about affirmative defenses (duress, entrapment, etc.)?

Then draw a conclusion. If you think the defense is weak, or there is a counter to it, state it and move on to the next crime. If you think the defense prevails, sum up with one sentence (e.g. Because there are no facts that suggest that X acted recklessly, the defense should prevail).

No practice tests, visiting professor. Tried google, tls and every other way to find old exams...

Thanks for the exam writing advice, thats an interesting (and very helpful) way to look at it. What confuses me is that "state the law, apply the law" My case book (not sure if this is industry standard) goes something like this..
1st page; common law definition of the crime
2nd page statute(s) of the jurisdiction where the cases in that chapter came from
4-5 cases from that jurisdiction

Other than demonstrating the application of the law, is there any real knowledge to be gained from these cases? It seems to me that my study time would be best utilized a)mastering the the common law defs b) skimming the hornbook (LaFave) for exceptions/interesting scenarios. It just sucks I have no prior tests or hypos for this prof. Going in blind to tests blows.

at this point I would not be reading cases anymore. cases are largely illustrative you need to focus on getting the law down the big question is what law do you need to know
I would get in touch with the professor and ask him whether you will be required to know common law and/or statutory law and whether on questions he will specify the law that is to be applied or want you to go through how the facts would be treated under different legal standards

Has anyone done C and F in the 3rd Department of NY? I had a friend get hassled for one ticket in Ohio and I have 8 tickets in the past 9 years that I have to report and am wondering if I am going to get hassled too.