I can't believe I'm going to agree with Alex on anything (even though his method of argument is ridiculously offensive and venal), but I, too, equate people who believe in a Christian/Muslim/whatever God to believing in Santa Claus.

I'm not going to say I know without a doubt that there is no god, because I don't...but the evidence is not there to say there is one, either.

Or to quote Peter Gent's paraphrasing of The Dane:

"Seeing through the game is not the same as winning it."

Okay. So it's from North Dallas Forty. Still stands up.

Wookie,

I hear you, and I liked that movie too

Looking at what you quoted - I could've worded that A LOT better, lol. Could've excluded the words stupid and irrational, among other things.

I guess what I wanna say is -

The only rational thing to do - is to continue growing and questioning. Part of that is listening to your heart and to your inner calling. That's balanced with some thinking. I guess you call it rational/irrational. I'd call it ying/yang or listening to your heart vs your head.

What is needed is a balance of the two, a unity. What happened in Before Sunset is his heart and her heart said yes, while their minds said maybe. So uniting the two - what they both did was great.


For scientists, they are oftentimes very yang, very rational and they don't listen to their hearts. So they can't connect with people.

For religious people, they're oftentimes yin, very emotionally savvy and choose to stick to what they know in their mind/yang doesn't make sense, because it makes them feel good.


So what you have is lack of balance. I know for sure most Christians doubt their faith - a man that walked on water is questionable. Or that story from the Old Testament with the boat and animals that keeps getting made fun of.

I know most scientists/programmers have trouble with women and human relationships in general.

So it's all about unity/balance - the way of Tao. I guess I could be called a Taoist, but then the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao, you know? After having gone through dozens of philosophers and spiritual teachers and so on - I've come to conclude that Tao Te Ching is the greatest spiritual text and Ramana Maharshi, the greatest guru that I've encountered.

Both give no specific rules or practices. No rules or limitations. They say, listen to your heart but don't forget your mind. Use your mind but don't forget your heart.


I see most religions as taking advantage of people's need to belong and be part of a group/purpose - and then taking advantage of people's fear of loss to control them. This is more clearly seen in some Eastern religions where one is asked to renounce all material possessions and worship the Guru - let him be your God.

It is more subtle in Christianity but the assumption is still there - you are broken and need fixing. The fixing only we can do.


A lot of people are willing to sacrifice that feeling like "this makes no sense" for warmth of a group - hence sheep. Some are very intellectual, shut their heart off and strive for power (politicians), but when they arrive - their heart hardly works anymore, they don't understand the people because they don't even understand themselves and there's a huge void in them - that's their heart aching, saying LISTEN TO ME, I AM HERE!

The same is what the mid-life crisis is - people sacrificing their desire to live (irrational/yin) by staying in a monogamy for the sake of children (yang/rational). When the child is finally grown, in a family where no love was present because the man was jerking off to porn while the woman, reading romance novels and possibly cheating on one another - they finally divorce. But their minds are so used to the pattern of not letting the heart in, that they KNOW their life is wrong and yet they don't know how to fix it... The same way a politician feels. The same way a religious person oftentimes feels, when he/she listens to a pastor openly bash certain things and you feel like wow, this is not me, this makes no sense, but you are so dependant on the religious group for your sense of belonging, friendship, support and so on.

It's a balance issue and imho the sooner one can become aware of this and begin to get it handled, the better. Oftentimes I see a very yin woman with a very yang man and they make a great couple - because they cancel out each other's lack of balance. But then they become overly dependant on one another and it falls apart. So really, one has to become centered in him/herself.

What is needed is a man or woman or both that'll be good/understanding of the people, and yet challenging them out of ignorance by having them use their minds. I am admittedly not that good to the people, while challenging their minds quite a bit. I am working on balancing the two.

I think the balance when achieved is called wisdom, or enlightenment.

I'm not sure if what I typed up addresses what you said at all. Let me know :P

Alex,

Finally. This is one of your best posts in the forum. You're finally starting to hit some tennis balls within the bounds of the court rather than sending them sailing off in all directions, often hitting people playing a separate game next to you. The way to convince me and the forum that you're good at tennis is not by repeating that mantra over and over while swinging your racket wildly. It's by actually hitting some tennis balls to the best of your ability and letting the world figure out that you're good. The above post is some of the latter. Most of your work in this thread and most threads is a lot of the former.

That said, you are still making a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity and of religion in general. You look at it as something that is fundamentally corrupt, that it is something that is fundamentally about building power for the religious leaders, that nobody involved in the organization actually believes their own bull****, they're just in it for the money and the power.

This is absolutely not true. The religion is not what is corrupt. People are corrupt. Religion isn't about power and control. Religion is about people getting together and sharing their common experience of the Divine. Religion is what gives a name to that urging you feel in your gut that you can't explain and connects you with people who feel that same thing.

What happens after that may be a little messy. I won't deny that religion has at times been corrupted by people who seek money and power. That is obvious. Virtually every aspect of our lives has been corrupted by people who seek money and power: government and politics, business and trade, science and medicine, all have been corrupted at times by people who put their own personal gain ahead of what the particular institution was supposed to be about. Sometimes we're even the ones who do the corrupting. However, in spite of the fact that government corruption keeps popping up (Senator Ted Stevens was just indicted today, as a matter of fact), I know for a fact that you're a staunch supporter of having government in your life. Why? It's been filled with greed, corruption, propaganda, power grabbing, brainwashing, and a lack of free thought. And yet you continue to fight the good fight for government in the taxation thread.

Maybe, though, you see something different in government. You see something with a noble purpose that has attracted a few slime balls. The good things, though, get no attention, and everyone focuses on the slime.

Not only is this your description of a healthy relationship, it also sounds like people you'd want in government. Interestingly enough, there are pastors who preach a message like this every single day. Church is not only about jamming dogma down your throat. Good pastors, like good teachers, don't just lecture you. They teach you to think for yourself about the world and about God. I'm sorry you haven't encountered any of these, but believe me, they're out there, and in respectable numbers.

Alex et al.,

You're not going to win an argument with Wookie about the one true God...because Wookie is clearly a Cylon.

Give up while you still can...

Wow, thanks for putting that thought into words. I often encounter people who live life like a pinball in a pinball machine, bouncing around aimlessly.

ok, i have no problem with you saying that my religion "doesn't make a lot of sense." That's fine. saying my religion is quite "peculiar" is one thing but saying that my beliefs are childish fantasy, like believing in Santa Claus, is another.

I wouldn't in my wildest dreams ever tell a Jew or Muslim or Hindu that his beliefs are laughable or like a fairytale, full of ridiculous characters, because it would be incredibly rude and smug on my part. Yet some people see no problem saying these things to Christians.

No, Blarg, I don't want to condemn non-Christians. That is so far from the truth. Most of my family, the guy I love, my long-time friends are non-Christians. I would never condemn any of them. The truth is that I don't know anything and would never ever presume to tell someone what the truth is. I never claim to have knowledge about religion or the afterlife and don't feel that my religious beliefs make me superior in any way. I respect other religions and I respect atheists who reject the notion of religion... it really doesn't matter to me what others believe in. I'm just annoyed when I see people who openly laugh at other people's religious views and then accuse us of "throwing hissy fits." I don't get it. It seems like bad manners.

you wouldn't say it, but it is inherent in all religion (at least the 3 main/abrahamic religions)...these religions all say that our way is right and incompatible w/ your religion...this is superiority built right in...and none of the religions have any real basis to believe that they are correct while the others are false...

Well if that's true then I am truly off and have no understanding of religion or my own belief system because I'm telling you that I don't feel superior at all and feel very small in the grand scheme of everything.

Wookie,

I think MAYBE the people who initially formed the religions of today were quite bright, understanding and giving. That's why people came to them to begin with. What I see currently when I talk to religious people - is a lot of confusion and inner turmoil. I mean, imagine being totally convinced that your nature... is sinful... That you are a piece of **** basically...

How can that be a strong foundation? I disagree with the most core and basic beliefs that Christians tell me and hence the problem.


I don't think one can be well balanced and yet convinced that all around him, are a bunch of sinners that need Jesus Christ as their saviour. The dots don't connect with me or anyone else I know - that doesn't rely on blind faith for their answers to life's mysteries.


That's my issue with religion. It has a lot of great ideas - I have a friend who tells me fantastic tales from the Bible and I'm awe-struck at the genius of it - but I just don't think Christianity is a healthy mindset for an individual to have. I am sorry.

This does not mean I think less of someone who's Christian or that I try to convert them or any of that. An atheist in today's world could very well be an equal to a Christian so I am not generalizing Christians as lesser beings or anything of the sort. But I do think there are better ideas out there that'll liberate you and give true freedom, hence my passion for spreading the message of balance and self-enquiry.

I also find that when someone already has a strong set of beliefs, they are incredibly hard to talk to. I am oftentimes guilty of this myself, but one HAS to question and wonder and if people looked up someone like Eckhart Tolle and actually read what he's saying - there's no question in my mind, that he'd ring unquestionable true, because his message is crisp, clear and with no strings attached - unlike most religions today.


p.s. I haven't read the Bible sadly. I think one of these days, I am going to do it - just to be able to relate to Christians better and help them sort out the paradoxical statements that many different branches of Christianity keep sending to them. I have this bright hope that maybe what I've come to conclude through other teachings and ideas - is actually what Christ was teaching in the Bible all along - but got misunderstood by most of Christian believers. I hope.

For instance - who gave the idea that in prayer, it is ok to ASK God for help? I always thought a prayer is like a chant, it is a praise and recognition of God's work on Earth, never a cry for help, because a cry for help means you are thinking one thing happening is God's will, while another is not. If one agrees that all is God's will, how can you ask for help - it is God's will that you be given a challenge and it is yours to overcome - not his.

katy,


i never said that you were feeling superior to other people necessarily, i said that by selecting a religion as the correct religion you are stating its superiority over the other available religions. this is not a personal thing with you specifically, its inherent with religion since they cannot all be right...

katy + any theist,

what reasons do you have for choosing christianity over islam? you must have some reasons or else you would be muslim...

katy,

thirddan is right. The very basic core of Christianity is that you shall put no other God before me. This line is hammered time and time again and gives rise to a lot of hate on anyone who's non-Christian.

If you yourself participate in this "my God is the only God" or not, is sadly, irrelevant. It is inherent and is the basic part of what Christianity is. Hence I can never be a Christian... And I'm bound to get superiority vibes from Christians as well as those other religions that hammer their way to be the only correct way.


btw. I did not mean Santa Clause as a derogatory. I think belief in Santa Clause is actually the purest and cutest form of belief a child can have. It's innocent and harms no one. I cannot say the same for religions that have caused crusades, wars and continue to smell of "No other God before me" aka I am superior.

I wish they would come out of hiding so that those numbers looked a little more respectable, because I sure have met some intolerant and weaselly SOB's among them.

A problem comes around when outsiders hold a religion's leaders to fairly ordinary standards that its followers would just as soon weren't mentioned. The intolerance and narrow mindededness preached from the pulpit too often gets a free pass from the congregation, and then you're left wondering how people could ever get the idea that the religion is intolerant and narrow-minded. Meanwhile, everyone else is just slapping their foreheads and rolling their eyes.

Honestly, I just think Christianity is too much work for most of its adherents. It's a pretty ambitious religion and takes some courage. I don't think it's really the right religion for most Christians!

In the depth of despair I read his (Christ's) words and kind of liked them. I thought he seemed compassionate.

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

Katy, do you feel non-believers are going to hell? And that they should?

absolutely not. I don't believe in that stuff.

What do you actually believe in? I know it's a loaded question but maybe, a quick overview or something of the sort?

I don't see how you can be a Christian and not believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. The alternative, or course, being hell, or purgatory if you believe in that.

That's fundamental to being a Christian in the first place. Without it, I'm not sure what you are, besides someone who just has a sort of religious spirit.

heh, very convincing
this is something i am actually quite curious about...would you mind providing a real/full answer?

hopefully you can see what alex and i meant by superiority being built into religion though...

blarg,

it seems that from what katy has said she is only christian to give her something to call herself....its convenient to label yourself as a christian because people know what it means right away and for the most part is a safe label to have in the states...very few people follow through as this thread points out...

A sense of superiority seems to be built into "rationality" also...

plus it gives something to be upset about, when people compare something you don't really believe in, to Santa Clause :P *grins* I had to say that, sorry, lol.


Hobby,

Yeah absolutely, that's why I tried to take the words in a different direction. In my loooooong post it explains it.

rationality vs irrationality? yes rationality is superior, are you really disputing that?

do you disagree with what i stated about religion?

That's not the dichotomy that's been built up throughout this thread...it's rationality vs. faith.

Now you tell me - which is better and why? Oh...and I want proof too.