If you come at UD, you are typing your last posts on 2+2

nah

that was not his first account

nor his only account to be perma'd

ah ok

UD you suck and your pets have flees

And so it was that Gabethebabe randed vanilla wolf...

Wow.. this got ugly, huh?

I kinda want to say something here, mainly because I feel bad for Benjo.

I know he is not exactly a sympathetic character. Hell, he's come at me when I've tried to help him before, and I know he has caused issues in WW games although I haven't personally been in any of them when it was happening. I'm certainly not saying anything here to diminish whatever complaints there are against him.

UD runs a lot of games, and he is a good game mod. Pog can't ask for much better than that, and IMO it should buy him a great deal of leeway and autonomy. It has always been the custom here that game mods may exclude whomever they deem potentially problematic, and its an option that has been exercised a lot by past game mods, including myself. Benjo may or may not have a point with regard to personal feelings being at play, but even if that is so, the policy for game mods does technically extend to that. Game mods can exclude anyone, even if the reason is simply not liking them. Benjo is wrong that UD doesn't have the right to exclude him.

However, I think its unfair to act like its implausible for someone to view Anniversary as a game that belongs to the community, and that everyone should be allowed to play, with the exception of those under bans from playing WW in general. I think in many aspects I feel the same way in that its Anniversary precisely because everyone congregates back to Pog to play it. Being excluded from Anniversary is objectively worse than being excluded from any other game because the spirit of Anniversary is that its an annual gathering of the community, and being excluded from Anni feels like being excluded from the whole community in a way. Damn, its practically a rite of Pog. Ya know? Benjo isn't entirely wrong in where he is coming from on this, and I think its reasonable for him to be upset.

However, I can't really justify where he went with that. Yes, saying **** game mods and giving an ultimatum for a ban is not really excusable behavior. That being said, it is my humble opinion that needling Benjo in this spot is really uncompassionate. He is clearly a sensitive person and is struggling with some personal issues. Why be inhumane in that spot? He's excluded from the game, he's upset about it, he's obviously emotional. It just seemed like some of you were laughing at him and kicking him when he's down, and I think that's just as ugly as the way Benjo is behaving.

I think going forward, maybe the policy for game mods should be tweaked a little in that we rely more on WW bans for problem players rather than mods having to bear the onus of excluding individuals. When game mods have to do it, it leaves a lot of room for things to get personal, which clearly happened in this instance IMO, and its unpleasant for everyone, not just the people involved. A lot of mean spirited things have been said here, and to what end? Imagine this scenario instead: If Benjo is unfit to play WW, he should be on a timeout from all games. If Benjo is not so unfit that he is on timeout from WW, then he should be allowed to play Anniversary.

See how much cleaner that is? Maybe keep that in mind for next year.

Anyway, thank you to UD for taking on Anniversary this year. Its a huge task and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing it play out. Hopefully I'll even find the time to be able to play!

And Benjo, you need to clean up your act, babe, but its not impossible. Take a breather and then ask to come back. Promise good behavior, mean it, and things will move forward- trust me. Best of luck.

Prolly over the line with this post

I do not think Benji means bad or anything, but if you make post like this then better accept no as answer.

The whole thing probably would have been better to handle over PM, just CCing the mods if you want input or witnesses or whatever. Playing it out in public is only going to lead to hurt feelings. I'm really uncomfortable with how this went down and the things said itt. :/

The name itself says that it's a commemoration, and indeed I have two people that don't really play werewolf anymore (chuckles and filthy) sign up. So I agree that it's an occasion when everyone is brought together.

However, the fact that it's an event that bring everyone together does not erase the fact that I spent several months designing this game (and I had fun doing that, but it was still work) and will have to stare at a computer screen for 10+h/day for about a week. I am not complaining, I volunteered for this myself after I saw no one else was going to do it, but I firmly believe that the amount of work I put should give me exclusive rights to ban whoever I want.

I want to note again that before deciding to run this, I tried to poll the green mods on whether they wanted to run this themselves, with me helping them as a co-mod.

I would never agree to have a player imposed on me (see above for the reasons) but I want to clarify something. None of the players on my blacklist (it is only 8 people, btw) is there because I don't like them.

I am not a very happy-go-lucky person, and I can hold grudges; if I barred people I didn't like from my games, the list would have about 20 people. Maybe more.

I genuinely think Benjamin has (had?) the potential to harm WW games, and I explained my point of view in this very thread several months ago. If I were a green mod, he would have been blacklisted from werewolf long ago.

By the way, first he asks if it's ok to in, then he goes ape**** when I tell him no, then he tries to pretend that he genuinely wanted to check first if it was ok for him to in, then he says that he should be entitled to play.

I have absolutely no sympathy for the guy and I don't really care about his problems; I just hope he stops posting in my sign-up threads.

I don't mean this to offend you or diminish your effort, but I think its wrong to value a game over the wellness of another human being. There but for the grace of God go I, ya know? You're a great mod, and your game is not at threat atm. You can afford to be a little more charitable than this. ^

Maybe you're right. But I do.

Frankly, this is only the case bc he's been banned. If you look at his latest posts, it is not absurd to suspect that he would have kept spamming the sign-up thread.

Look, I'm not a saint and I won't pretend I am one. If someone keeps firing shots at me like that, I will probably not going to ignore them or turn the other cheek. I'm probably not going to be very charitable, even though I realize I might look a little ridiculous to the innocent bystander.

Cross,

What about the well-being of the other posters? To my eye, Benji is easily triggered, and when that happens he becomes highly toxic. It permeates the game and affects many players. So on those grounds, I disagree that it should be enough for UD to allow Benji to play.

I also do not want to dismiss how important playing in the game is to Benji, or how hurt he was by being rejected by UD. But given Benji's toxic reaction, I would suggest that maybe playing in the game would not have been good for Benji's well-being even if UD would allow it.

Having said all of that, I do not think UD is concerned so much with the well-being of any player so much as he wants a game he invested months designing to run well. Not just for his sake, but for the sake of the many players who will invest a week (and some beyond that) of their lives to the game. If he has determined that allowing a player into the game provides what he considers an unacceptable potential for that player to break the game, I don't blame him for forbidding that player from signing up.

best wolf performance in a game he gets carried smh

I think you misunderstand my point of view. I am not suggesting that Benjo be allowed to play this Anniversary after what has happened here and the things that were said. He shouldn't. And UD may be correct that its wise to wait until Anniversary is over to revisit things with Benjo.

My main point was that I don't think either side behaved admirably in this exchange. It is enough for UD to ban him from the game, it is his right as a game mod and I don't dispute it. He may be correct in exercising his right in this instance too; I don't know. But just as Benjo should have expected UD to say no to him playing, UD should have expected Benjo to be hurt by it.

This is just my opinion, but I think Benjo was handled harshly here. He's a kid, and he's posted a lot recently about how he's been struggling in his personal life. The comments here that allude to his mental health, such as that he's not normal, hopefully not near a Thai brothel- a Newteabag reference, and the phone number to the suicide prevention hotline, are deeply unkind to a degree I cannot ignore.

It is one thing to ban Benjo from the game- a move I cannot rightly argue against, but it is certainly another to pile on him with comments that demean him as a human being. Its not funny. That's all I'm objecting to.

As a side note, I also commented on the possible need to readdress this particular exclusion policy in general, but that is not a new comment, and has come up many times before as typically when someone is excluded this exact thing happens in the grievance thread etc. That's for another time though.

If someone talks about harming themselves in real life, I will post that number every time.

It's not unkind, it's making someone aware of resources.

I agree that several posters made posts that I think are out of line. The suicide prevention one rings especially cruel.

However, it seemed to me your post was to UD, no? And after double checking UD's posts, he said nothing like what you or I commented on as out of line. His responses, despite a heavy dose of hostility and toxicity from Benji, seemed to me more than calm, measured, and respectful.

And I say that as a person who is aware I can be abnormally sensitive to this sort of thing. I tend to think it is cruel and counterproductive to be an ******* to someone, even if you have a good point and they are completely in the wrong. But I don't think UD has been unkind in this situation, unless you think him giving a clear NO and supplying clear reasons counts as unkind.

ETA: Just saw Puzzles post. I retract the comment about the suicide prevention being cruel. I took it as a joke, but I see Puzzles was sincere and reaching out to Benji in good faith. My apologies, Puzzles.

My longer posts are to nobody in particular, but the thread in general. The only post that was directed only to UD was in response to him saying he has no sympathy for Benjo and doesn't care about his problems, only that he doesn't sign up for his game.

UD and I have fundamental personality differences, and he doesn't like me, but I don't have any personal issues with him, and definitely don't mean for anything I've said to come off as a criticism of him as a game mod or his decisions made in that capacity. I do think he could have been kinder in his dealings, but that's a me issue, and not one he has to conform to.

Yeah, I mean, its important when posts like that are made that they seem sincere and not mocking someone in distress. The fact that nobody could tell in this instance and several people actually thought it was a joke is kind of a problem. Glad its been clarified, because it did come across extremely cruel at first glance.

I think that is less a problem with the post Puzzles made, though, and more that we are in a subforum where people tend to give each other a lot of grief in good fun. We sometimes make jokes and only after hitting post realize how insensitive we were being. To that, I would quote your own "there but for the grace of God"

I'm not in the position to call anyone a liar, but I'm of the opinion that there are better ways to convey that info than publicly posting it in a way that could be construed as mockery. Maybe a PM?

Anyway, I've said my piece. Hopefully everyone chills out a bit.

Aww yeah. Moving up in the world!

KruZe's post was obviously not made in jest. If you think that you clearly don't know him at all.

As far as banjo goes, I've heard he's been a lot better lately. I would've still kept him on ignore as getting sucked into pointless arguments with him each game just makes me a worse player.

Personally I've no problem with game mods making the decisions on excluding players.