POG Politics Thread - Page 363 - Puzzles and Other Games Forum

Like if someone in thread offered to educate me on the fact that abortion is murder and therefore should be punishable by death I would not see the point in engaging with them on the latter belief because I do not believe the former to be a fact

09-17-2018 , 12:37 PM

#9052

biggerboat

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I see we have a new player!

This is for you, Herbie

It is a Yellowtail. You can identify it by the yellow tail. It is yummy!

09-17-2018 , 12:38 PM

#9053

HerbieGRD

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Looks yummy - hi bigger

09-17-2018 , 12:42 PM

#9054

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

Only if you believe that the thing in question is actually a fact instead of a belief system based on value judgments, which I do not

Your argument has become quite circular lol

09-17-2018 , 12:44 PM

#9055

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 59,239

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

I bring up examples itt about her only because it was a specific discussion we had itt. We have not had similar disagreements about random generic politicians. If someone came in insisting that Joe Biden was God’s gift of the left then I would probably be “bashing” him instead.

Okay, this is fair and explains most of what I was wondering about.

09-17-2018 , 12:45 PM

#9056

Birdman10687

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“Income inequality is a bad thing because it is wrong to have people that are so rich when others are so poor”

That is a value judgment

“The way to end income inequality is to give control of the means of production to society at large rather than private owners”

That is a factual observation. It may be wrong, but it is not a value judgment

09-17-2018 , 12:47 PM

#9057

HerbieGRD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Your argument has become quite circular lol

If you want to show that your statement is not an opinion but a fact you should be able to provide a factual based proof of the statement. If it is, indeed, a fact, then once provided with this proof I should be forced to accept both the validity of each of the underlying facts and that those facts in combination lead indisputably to your conclusion

Just saying you know something doesn’t make it a fact

09-17-2018 , 12:48 PM

#9058

Birdman10687

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There is not point in have arguments about values (to some extent). If someone genuinely believes that murdering people is not wrong then what can you say? However if we both agree murder is wrong we can freely have a discussion about how to reduce murder even though we both agree it is bad

09-17-2018 , 12:49 PM

#9059

HerbieGRD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

The second statement is not a factual statement because it isn’t true

A factual statement would be

“The way to end income inequality is to pay everyone the same amount”

09-17-2018 , 12:50 PM

#9060

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

First off, this is hilariously naive and not true at all

Second, you seem to be saying that it is only worth having a discussion about values because if it is about facts then it is just a lecture. But then you go on to say that what I am talking about isn’t actually factual but instead is just a difference in values. Wouldn’t that mean, per your original point, it is worth discussing?

09-17-2018 , 12:52 PM

#9061

HerbieGRD

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The point you are missing here Birdman is that your second statement relies on an assumption, which is

If we give control of the means of production to society at large rather than private owners then we will pay everyone the same

Which is uncertain to say the least

09-17-2018 , 12:52 PM

#9062

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

The second statement is not a factual statement because it isn’t true

A factual statement would be

“The way to end income inequality is to pay everyone the same amount”

“Concerned with what is actually the case rather than interpretations of or reactions to it”

Whether it is true or not is the the characteristic we are talking about. If you’ll see in my post I even say “even if it is wrong, it is still a factual discussion”

09-17-2018 , 12:53 PM

#9063

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

The second statement is not a factual statement because it isn’t true

A factual statement would be

“The way to end income inequality is to pay everyone the same amount”

actually that's a tautology

a factual statement would be "people today have different incomes"

09-17-2018 , 12:53 PM

#9064

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

Something being uncertain is not the same as something being value based—surely you understand that, Herbie?

09-17-2018 , 12:53 PM

#9065

HerbieGRD

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For a statement like the one I originally called out it doesn’t rest on a single assumption it rests on a whole boatload of assumptions about causations and results and interactions

09-17-2018 , 12:54 PM

#9066

HerbieGRD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Something being uncertain is not the same as something being value based—surely you understand that, Herbie?

I’m getting there

09-17-2018 , 12:55 PM

#9067

HerbieGRD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

actually that's a tautology

a factual statement would be "people today have different incomes"

Tautologies are by definition factual statements

09-17-2018 , 12:55 PM

#9068

Birdman10687

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Herbie and IANAW, you are confusing “true” or “accurate” with factual. Factual does not necessarily mean something is correct.

09-17-2018 , 12:56 PM

#9069

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

If we give control of the means of production to society at large rather than private owners then we will pay everyone the same

this is not a factual statement, it is a conditional proposition

the proposition's consequent is historically, factually incorrect

09-17-2018 , 12:57 PM

#9070

Birdman10687

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If I said “the sky is purple” that is a factual statement. It is wrong, but it is factual. It is not a value judgment.

If I said “there exists intelligent life not native to the earth” that is a factual statement. It is uncertain, but it is factual. It is not a value judgment

09-17-2018 , 12:58 PM

#9071

HerbieGRD

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So (and I probably wasn’t remotely clear enough of this) for a statement to be a factual statement it must rest solely on assumptions that are true regardless of the values of the person evaluating the statement. If there is so much as one assumption that requires a value judgment then it’s not fact but opinion. A statement like the one you made about means of production is a factual statement but it’s one that may or may not be true depending on whether the assumption is met

09-17-2018 , 12:59 PM

#9072

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

Tautologies are by definition factual statements

no, a factual statement is a description of something occurring in the real world

a tautology makes no reference to the real world; it is formulation necessitated by a particular system of semantic relationships

when birdman says "capitalism ends when imperialism ends", he is expressing a tautology. it is neither a factual statement nor a value statement.