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09-15-2018 , 12:02 AM

#8826

metsandfinsfan

banned

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 160,445

Yes i won't argue more could have been done

But billions were sent

From what i read 2 major issues were

Already bad infrastructure

Informally built homes were tough to prove ownership of and fena denied more applications than sounds humane

So i will concede more could have been done but if you really think the us govt did nothing to help them this isn't worth debating

09-15-2018 , 12:08 AM

#8827

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Mets, what are your thoughts on Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state?

09-15-2018 , 12:10 AM

#8828

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

what is Finland?

Capitalist

09-15-2018 , 12:13 AM

#8829

HerbieGRD

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27,287

And one feature of many of the regimes that you cite as being non-capitalist is that they are extremely insular and have pretty strict state control of media, so it’s very difficult to say definitively what is and is not happening in those places with any degree of certainty. My general sense is that things are probably a lot closer to 1984 than any of the idealized visions of communism in places like the DPRK but I can’t actually prove it, and that also is likely by design

09-15-2018 , 12:16 AM

#8830

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
what is Finland?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Capitalist

and what is their environmentalism score iyo?

09-15-2018 , 12:18 AM

#8831

metsandfinsfan

banned

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 160,445

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Mets, what are your thoughts on Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state?

Id have to do more research, but obviously politically i don't like it based on what it does to congress

The increased federal tax revenue would be great if the people can afford to pay it (yes they don't pay federal income tax now)

And id want english to be they main language

If and when the infrastructure is in better shape, maybe

But if they want to id listen

I don't think the majority of Puerto ricans want to from what I've read

Idk

09-15-2018 , 12:21 AM

#8832

HerbieGRD

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27,287

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

And id want english to be they main language

If and when the infrastructure is in better shape, maybe

Not even gonna bite on this one

09-15-2018 , 12:22 AM

#8833

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

and what is their environmentalism score iyo?

this is a vague question--what are you asking?

09-15-2018 , 12:23 AM

#8834

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

I think this is a rather bold assertion, and I doubt that it's possible to make any particularly persuasive argument to support it.

And my feeling is that you probably could make some argument that a more socialistic society might have more cultural resources from which to organize collective action around preventing long term climate impact. Or, to flip it around, I think you can argue that certain cultural elements in the US -- which are certainly connected to structural/economic elements of capitalism, but from a collective action standpoint I think culture and shared values are a big part of this -- make it more difficult to achieve those goals. But even among other western countries which do not count as socialist by your metrics (AFAIK) the US is a pretty big outlier in these terms, and it's far from clear that other capitalist societies are necessarily unable to meaningfully address climate change solely as a result of their political economy.

Mostly, it seems to me that you deduce too much from oversimplified categories of "capitalist" and "socialist".

1) It really has nothing to do with values.

2) If you believe that it can be done under capitalism it seems you would be suggesting the possibility of zero/negative growth capitalism?

09-15-2018 , 12:25 AM

#8835

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

But I think we are mixing up the idea of communism as a system of government with the idea of communism as an economic system, which is kind of intentional because I think communists don’t see them as separate but instead see them as two facets of a cohesive whole

We are throwing a lot of words around so things have started to get pretty imprecise. But, one thing is for certain, a government does not exist independent of the economy and the economy does not exist independent of the government.

09-15-2018 , 12:26 AM

#8836

iamnotawerewolf

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

Id have to do more research, but obviously politically i don't like it based [1]on what it does to congress

[2]The increased federal tax revenue would be great if the people can afford to pay it (yes they don't pay federal income tax now)

[3]And id want english to be they main language

[4]If and when the infrastructure is in better shape, maybe

[5]But if they want to id listen

I don't think the majority of Puerto ricans want to from what I've read

Idk

1) What would it do to Congress?
2) Does everybody in Rich Port live below the poverty line?
3) What if I told you there was no official language in the US?
4) How is the infrastructure in Louisiana?
5) Puerto Rico Overwhelmingly Votes On U.S. Statehood In Nonbinding Referendum

09-15-2018 , 12:27 AM

#8837

iamnotawerewolf

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

this is a vague question--what are you asking?

You know damn well what I'm asking.

09-15-2018 , 12:27 AM

#8838

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Herbie, it seems you are sort of subscribing to the Fukayama "end of history" philosophy? That we got to capitalism and now that is what we have until the end of time?

Do you recognize the transition from feudalism to capitalism as a social upheaval or just more of the same? Do you think the outcome of the French revolution was to just produce a short period of change and then a slide back to whatever they had before? I have so many questions.

09-15-2018 , 12:29 AM

#8839

HerbieGRD

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27,287

To be fair there is some nuance to #5, while I think it is likely that most people in PR want statehood I don’t think it’s terribly clear cut

09-15-2018 , 12:30 AM

#8840

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

You know damn well what I'm asking.

I googled "environmental score" and I don't see anything specific called that. If you are just asking how good Finland is relative to the rest of the world environmentally they seem good?

09-15-2018 , 12:31 AM

#8841

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,085

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

2) If you believe that it can be done under capitalism it seems you would be suggesting the possibility of zero/negative growth capitalism?

You've added another premise, i.e. that tackling climate change requires zero or negative growth. It's not entirely clear to me that this is true, although I think it's probably reasonable to think that serious attempts to address climate change would limit growth. But, sure, it's also not clear to me that zero or negative growth in capitalistic societies is an impossibility either. I doubt that it's possible to make very many sweeping statements at this level of abstraction.

09-15-2018 , 12:33 AM

#8842

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerbieGRD

What idealized versions of communism?

09-15-2018 , 12:33 AM

#8843

HerbieGRD

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27,287

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

I don’t subscribe to that theory at all, and I think there have been real and meaningful shifts in both governance and economic structure, and I believe that we are capable of more in the future. My argument is that the version of Marxist communism that you appear to be arguing for is an inherently unstable system that can not sustain itself for any meaningful period of time because for it to be stable it requires humans to behave in a way that as far as I can tell humans have never behaved and probably are not capable of behaving as a group for more than a little while

09-15-2018 , 12:34 AM

#8844

HerbieGRD

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27,287

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

What idealized versions of communism?

The ones that involve a dictatorship of the proletariat

09-15-2018 , 12:36 AM

#8845

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

I googled "environmental score" and I don't see anything specific called that. If you are just asking how good Finland is relative to the rest of the world environmentally they seem good?

yet they are capitalist iyo?

09-15-2018 , 12:38 AM

#8846

HerbieGRD

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 27,287

One can argue that our current iteration of liberal democracy is also proving itself to be an unstable system but I’m still not quite ready to shovel the dirt on it just yet (though I feel like I’m going to regret this post 5 years from now if I happen to remember it)

09-15-2018 , 12:39 AM

#8847

Birdman10687

Not a Troll IRL

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

yet they are capitalist iyo?

Yeah I am confused where you are going with this. Like 98% of the world is capitalist...so relative to other capitalist countries they seem to be on the better end. What does this mean to you?

09-15-2018 , 12:42 AM

#8848

filthyvermin

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 61,363

man, i feel so much better about the threat of authoritarian rule now that i know the corporations will protect me ;p

herbie, i respect just about all you said. and agree at least somewhat that a ton of what you said. but corporations as our protectors is a mets level terrible grasp of reality