Without getting into a my system versus yours discussion:

You need a forcing rebid after 1D-1S; 2D-?. Most people I know play 3C as a sort of "new minor forcing" here, because 2H is just too important as natural (and in my system, it is natural and GF).

I rebid 3-game-forcing-clubs on the 1633 hand you gave. Because my partner knows that can be on 3, and I'll clarify my intent later. This is an agreement we have about how we treat these types of hands. We also have the agreement that we don't fake j/s into a major ever. Majors are real.

You can play 2H as a sort of GF checkback in your auction, but it needs to be discussed, and I don't think it's optimal, though I'm open to being convinced. As it stands, I bid 4D over 2D, which for us in this auction isn't KC.

In the auction you gave, I bid 7N.

So I want to be in 7N at MPs, right?

I recommend to play 1D-1S-2D-2H (and similar) as natural and forcing, but not to game.

Sure, that's standard.

We have systemic bids over 1m to show 5S+/4H+ constructive or inv., which is why we are able to play 2H as GF in this auction.

I bid 7NT. I don't mind temporizing for a round (and would choose 3C, not 2H) if partner would have rebid diamonds with 3=2=6=2. If that's a 1NT rebid then either he failed to support spades with three card support and an unbalanced hand, making it his fault (even 3=x=7=x should raise spades imo), or spades is never going to be the best strain. Anyway, I now know what I need, because...
... yes I do. This is the absolute worst partner can have for me, and it still makes on an opening club lead, 3–3 spades, club onside, club and (sole) heart guard offside, or any of various defensive errors. Even ignoring the lead and error possibilities, that's about 70%, and ignoring those possibilities is a bad idea.

Considering that partner having a seventh diamond or the heart queen makes it cold, and a second spade makes it about 98%, and none of those possibilities has been precluded, I'm bidding 7NT before someone screws something up.

i play multi-landy vs nt but am not sure if it is standard to change the meanings once passed (besides double)

does my idea (below) sound reasonable?



so normal bids are
dbl - strong
2c - majors
2d - relay to 2h, singlesuited
2h - hearts and minor
2s - spades and minor
2n - minors
3c/3d/3h/3s - natural

after passed
DBL - relay to 2c, convertable if strong
2C - 2 places to play (not clubs)
2D - majors
2H - natural
2S - natural
2N - minors
3c/3d/3h/3s - natural

By "2D relay to 2H, single suited" do you mean single suited in hearts (which would leave you know way to get to 2S), or single suited in one of the majors? If the latter, the problem is that that's not general chart — all calls other than double and 2C must show at least one known suit.

promises 6+ in any of the 4 suits but normally majors (if a minor, weaker than a direct 3c/3d bid)

its for a higher-chart event so i think its ok

edit: actually not sure if its allowed, had assumed its allowed in a national event, if not fml

The real advantage to Landy/Woolsey is 2C being majors. Like Shrike said though, 2D has to be 1 known suit in general convention chart events.

Partner and I modified it to be GCC legal as follows:

(1NT)-

2C-majors
2D-diamonds and a 5 card major
2H-5 card hearts and clubs
2S-5 card spades and clubs
X- 4 card major with longer minor OR single suited.

After the X, advancer assumes it is 4 card major/longer minor and bids 2C if he prefers the minors or 2D if he prefers the majors. Intervenor will then place the contract

If it's a mid-chart event it would be allowed... if you have an ACBL-approved defense available. You can't play a convention just because you want to, even in a midchart event. And getting homegrown stuff approved is very difficult. (I don't know whether there already is one for the convention you described.

Edit: Never mind the struck-out part — approved defenses aren't required for defenses to notrump.

ok glad the legality has been established


would still appreciate some comments on how bids should be revised for passed hand, i did some more reading and i'm trying to figure out which bids provide the most value


DBL - relay to 2c, may be passed with strong values

after 2c
- if passed, single-suited
- 2d, shows diamonds and hearts
- 2h, shows hearts and clubs (strongly implies longer/stronger hearts than clubs)
- 2s, shows spades and clubs (strongly implies longer/stronger spades than clubs)

2C - majors
2D - diamonds and spades
2H - natural
2S - natural
2N - minors


so mostly i'm unsure of which suits are most important to be able to bid competitively; in the current form i don't have a way of showing a 5-6 card diamond suit on the 2 level

would giving up diamonds and spades be a better choice?

what other bids might you prioritize differently?

Just switch it so that 2M is M+m, M longer or equal, and dbl is m+M, longer m.

Promising 5M/4m seems extremely restrictive as a passed hand - most of the time we really don't want to play at the 3 level or will be happy to put the other side to a guess - its actually the main reason i started looking into this


i think a natural 2H/2S that can promise 5 or 6 cards is more attractive

imagine a hand like the following, dealer V vs. NV

KJTxxx Kx Qx xxx


you make a conservative pass in 1st position rather than turn your hand into a weak 2 (if this hand doesn't fit the bill for you exactly there are probably other 8-11 point hands with 6 spades that do)

P (1N) P (P)

wouldn't being able to bid a natural 2S be very attractive




reverse the vulnerability and the natural bids also seems attractive

P (P) P (1N)
P (P)


Doesn't it seem desirable to be able to bid 2H on a hand like this

Kx
KQJTx
xxx
xxx




i haven't been able to find a lot of writing on the subject so i was mostly curious if anyone had any strong theoretical leaning

for example - do we still prefer 2c to ask for majors as a passed hand or does the extra space help a strong pair too much?

maybe 2d or 2h to show majors is much more effective

I recommend to change this system. Having to bid 2D with 4D and longer major is bad, as it allows opponents to bid MUCH more easily. If you have spades and diamonds, you give them the free option to bid 2H. The preemptive value of 2S is huge. Just play 2M as 5M and 4+m and find something else for 2D (natural is fine, but you can fill it in as you please).

Won't work with the follow ups we have designed. Our defense is focused more on constructive bidding and 2M has to show clubs for our advances to work.

Example:

(1N)-2H!-(P)-2N!
(P)-3C!-(P)-P

In this auction, partner is showing an invitational hand (can be strength or shape) with support for one or both of my suits. 3C is denying game interest, and since partner knows my shape, he can place the contract.

I hate the fact that most of the NT defenses are 1 bid systems... get in, get out...

You can have very intelligent auctions when the opponents open 1NT to reach some thin games that easily make since you can play the hand double dummy for the most part.

Moni,

There are plenty of defenses to NT that do what you describe.
Dont has 2H as majors, Capp has 2d as majors, and Meckwell has 2M natural.

Meckwell:
2m = m+M
2M = nat
X = one minor or both majors

Hell, you could just play Landy and replace X with any m+M (but taking preference is hard because you don't know relative lengths).

But to your question, as a PH I'm way less likely to have a single suit, particularly one I want to bid, because I've already bypassed opening a w2. I actually really like playing Woolsey (multi landy but x is 5m4M instead of penalty) in all positions vs strong NT.

I would question this line of thinking. Why do you hate it? What's wrong with it exactly?

What percentage of those thin games you've bid would you estimate have been in a major?

I guess the point of disagreement is that with almost any hand over their NT, one bid is exactly the number of bids I want to make, unless we have a good major suit fit and values to explore game, in which case judgment is a fine substitute for science. Hence the importance of being able to bid majors.

The problem basically becomes "how light are you willing to intervene", because the lighter you're willing to do that, the more impossible it is for advancer to invite with hands it might be intelligent to invite with. If you restricted your 2M overcalls of 1NT to 12+ and a good six card suit, advancer would know pretty well what to do when it came up... but it wouldn't come up much.

And at the risk of committing a stupid, I'm going to defer to the wisdom of the masses that it's better to intervene fairly light (both because you can steal some partscores and those add up, and because messing up people's otherwise pretty pristine notrump auctions is usually a good idea).


Edit to add: some of the difference here may be an IMP vs MP based perspective; I think that adjusting style somewhat (and not volunteering for -800 at IMPs) is a good idea, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to change my system for it.

I already bid 2S with the first hand; if you give me a much weaker suit and more values (say J9xxxx Kx Ax Jxx) that I didn't want to open, yes, bidding 2S has some merit.

With the KQJTx hearts hand, in third seat I already opened that 2H... but in any event saying "2H natural promises 5 or 6" is something you need to be careful with. If you mean "it's usually 6+ but every once in a while you pick up a really really nice 5 carder that looks like 6 and that's OK too" then that's fine, but please don't go bidding it on KT7xx because you said "5 or 6".

And yeah, there are a lot of systems that allow 2M natural, and I think it's generally agreed that's a good thing. Meckwell http://www.bridgeguys.com/Convention...onvention.html has that, some others do too.

What I use, and like, and if you like something else better then good for you. This isn't strictly perfect, but it works fine, and has the advantage of double being penalty (so you don't have to remember another system vs. a weak NT, basically):

X: penalty
2C: diamonds, or a major/minor two suiter.
2D: majors
2H: hearts
2S: spades
2NT: clubs
3C: minors

(those last two you can switch, we like it better this way as it puts some pressure on the opponents with both minors).

Advancer's bids are pass or correct, so with say some 4441 shape you can see (1NT) - 2C - P - 3D knowing you have a fit somewhere. 2NT advances probably should show some sort of strongish hand.

Disadvantage: you can't play 2C with clubs, I guess. Who ever lets you play 2C anyway? Also, fourth hand can't do much with a suit of their own (because bids are P/C).

My regular partner and I are mainly imp players. Our invites are based more on shape and loser count than strength. We are typically over calling on a max of 7-8 losers and concentration of values. We aren't coming in with short suit values and ratty 5 carders just because we have the right shape.

thanks everyone, interesting discussion and your feedback has been helpful

i'm gonna talk over some of the options with my partner



i guess the sequence i need to think about the most now is how important it is to have a m+M bid

it seems so unwieldy maybe leaving it out is fine

The bad news is that it's sort of unwieldy
The worse news is that you will have M+m hands four times as often as you have both majors, so accommodating them is probably important.

The other thing to consider is that 2C or 2D undoubled is probably not a likely par contract anyway (either because the opponents have a major, or they're going to hit 2m when it's right, or they're just going to compete in notrump, or you can make more than 2m), so having a system tailored to stopping in those contracts isn't, IMO, that big a deal.

i can still show half my m+M hands though using the system i proposed in my last post

i can show D+H and D+S but not C+H and C+S
i also can't show SS D but that is a relatively small concern given at least one player will have bypassed the chance to bid a weak 2D

vul all

(1H) P (1N) P
(P ) DBL

*1N non-forcing

what should DBL show on this auction

What I would expect it to mean from a random pickup partner, and probably "standard": penalty, with some hand that didn't want to overcall 1NT for whatever reason (maybe some 14 count with KQT9x of hearts or something). They should be very prepared for a heart lead.

By agreement you could change it to light takeout if you wanted to and not lose a ton

You could also usefully play it as a two-way bid where partner can look at their hand to decide; if they have a lot of hearts it's takeout, if they have a stiff it's penalty. (Don't ask me what to do with three small.)