I guess what I don't understand is why moderators can't just exile posters from their sub forum if they deem that poster to be a troll/disruptive? Couldn't we just put a note in the violating posters file saying they are no longer welcome in that subforum? If they return they face the justice that that forums rules go by.

As is, the infraction system gives too much power to the mods covering territory that isn't theirs. It allows for this to happen. Now everyone loses. The site loses a contributor that NO DOUBT brought traffic here. The posters lose a contributor that they enjoyed reading/learning from and in some cases may just leave 2p2/participate less. And limon loses his ability to shoot the shyt (that's for you limon) with other poker players from around the world/spread his wisdom.

AxeGrinders post makes an excellent point as well and can be used as an example of why site wide bans may be too much for individual mods rather then just simply exiling them from their own turf, where the rules that are in place are theirs, avoiding any discrepancy or conflict of interests.

edit to add- why cant we give offending posters an undertitle saying exiled from 'so n so'. That way it lets other mods in that forum know that poster isn't welcome incase they aren't privy to a fellow mods actions against said poster. If they acquire more than one exile then they get banned as they're just a disruptive presence.

Hi Ryan,

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this quote you made ...

... when it's put up against this one that you made a few posts later:



On the one hand you're saying that the rules are the rules and you can't break them, but then you're saying that it needs to be case by case as otherwise it will become ridiculous.

So which is it? Because if it's case by case then I think you need to look at limon's situation again. I can understand giving him a one week ban to cool off and for everyone to get more rational, but banning him from the site permanently?

The simple fact is that not all posters are the same, as you clearly state in your second quote above. Someone who is great at poker, is an effective written communicator, and who actually is still happy after over 10 years to take the time to impart his knowledge on the site should be on a different league to someone who posts exclusively in BBV4life and doesn't even play poker.

I sincerely hope that all parties realise in the coming days that mistakes have been made on both sides and that nothing is to be gained for anyone in having limon banned permanently from 2+2.

I feel like I'm coming across as someone who wanted Limon gone, when really given the input from some posters I have respect for, I wish he could stay. And I wouldn't mind at all if Ryan were to say that he decided to let him cool off and he could come back in a few days. But I also don't have a big issue with him staying banned after the way he came back after having his ban lifted.

Yeah, I was a little concerned he might have taken a different meaning from what I said, although I though I was pretty clear:
I thought that's what just happened, but then he came into a different forum (ATF) with the same name-calling.

The name calling that happened itt was clearly a joke, lol.

Anyway axe brought up a gOod quote of someone wishing death on limon, I though that wasn't allowed on this site?

I have no recollection of this three-year-old exchange. That was a pretty terrible OP and an even worse response by me. To call it reprehensible could be anywhere from fair to an understatement. Current me would have given past me an infraction for trolling there.

It's both. What happens when someone breaks them is case by case. Some mods and forums are more rigid than others. The who, how it all happened and why is something that should be considered.

I think it is fairly accurate statement, I think there are a couple of major factors; i.e. people like Bart Hanson or Galfond getting paid for their input somewhere else, so we were left with having to dig through pages and pages of indecipherable input from a bunch of micro-stakes-wannabe-super-stars giving mediocre advice as gospel as if they were beating the nosebleeds.

Which brings us to the second main reason, as you stated before, the loss of online poker in the US, so for the player base looking for advice in the B&M arena, the pickins are extremely slim.

I think in the past I undervalued 2p2 and now I maybe I am overvaluing 2p2 as a resource for good information.
Maybe there is some value in training websites, but still it is difficult to weed through the scammers to get a straight answer, when we were getting it here for free.

I agree, I really think there is a grey area here, whereas Limon really thought he could 'pop off' in this particular thread and go back to business as usual. I also think he was aware that he might get rebanned and really didn't care as this has kind of turned into a bloated drama and he doesn't have to post anything.

But I digress and agree the rules are rules and Limon kind of put you between a rock and hard place.

Maybe there is something to looking into the cold stone rules and infraction system and 'trolling mods' vs 'trolling posters'.

I think 2p2 still has value, just not as much as last week, or last month, or last year.

This seems very logical.

Jloc always delivers. He basically turned the worst forum on 2+2 into the best (IMO)

Dr. Ikes would take over and the Yankees thread would overtake the TIGAZZZZZ thread for most posts in SE.

I think you might be surprised, I think limon probably would have fit in well in 4L. Instead of all being busto's who don't play poker the actual common characteristic of most of the posters there is that they don't take the internet too seriously.

Ultimately, what would happen is that limon would've just went back into BM with a post, would've been banned for exile violation and this thread would still exist, probably about the same as it is now.

Given that he posted what he did when unbanned in here what do you think limon would say or do if Rapini told him he's not allowed in BM again?

Situation looks crappy, but anger might be just a tad misplaced here... ask yourself... where's the line? Another unban? What if he posts the same thing again? Another?

I understand the guy is a legend poster and it hurts the boards, but what about the mod that volunteers his time to make the community a better place? If his decisions are constantly overturned and you keep pushing his buttons over and over, that seems like a recipe for losing all the volunteer moderators.

If Rapini is a tough mod, judging by the posts it's pretty well known to posters how the forum is moderated, I would imagine that goes for limon too, I think I read he's been here for 10 years.

And finally, a top player and poster in a community I participate in here once posted a bad picture and got banned for it, it was a standard ban. A bunch of regulars asked if he could be let back, and after a more formal version of what took place in this thread he was let back. If he instantly posted another obscene picture I would be pushing my anger towards him, not the mods or admins. That's especially so given that he's a great contributor and top thinking mind. This is poker, like a thinking game, not runway modeling or something.

But you know what, if the user in my example had posted the 2nd picture, been banned and a thread came up in the forum, a ton of posters would've flamed the mods and admins anyways.

I've been reading limon's posts for more than 7 years now and it never once occurred to me that he is someone who might need to be banned one day. And I say that as someone who is almost universally of the opinion that mods are too gun-shy about banning truly bad posters. For a good, veteran member of the forum to get banned one day without any of the other mods even knowing that there is a problem is indicative of a broken system.

I will also say that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that Rapini uses this thread to make direct, personal attacks against limon, knowing that in ATF he does not need to hold himself to the same standards that he imposes on others in his own forum, and then limon is banned (again) for posting personal attacks in this thread.

I don't think we should be worrying about losing moderators whose important decisions need to be overturned constantly. It's with good reason that any non-trivial bans are expected to be discussed first in the mod forum.

And I might add that someone who was demodded and had a bunch of his bans undone is now a mod again and apparently doing a satisfactory job of it.

yeah man, this is how bad behavior is dealt w/. The problem is w/ perm banning. If this is how the NBA was run Kobe and Noah would have lifetime bans. Some guys continue to argue called strikes and foul calls even though it's against the "rules". They get ejected and suspended but not banned! Next.

I can't believe this has to be explained to otherwise smart people, but these are the type of personalities that allow ironic Vonnegut classics to be written

I really can't believe there's no gap between [one-day ban] and [perma-ban]. Give him a week or something, but this perma stuff is bs

limon post -> obnoxious response -> nuclear backhand

this has been the entertainment for a decade. mix in a healthy dose of high-quality content matched by few posters, and you've got limon. he gave a lot more to this community than he got back.

Ryan and rapini, reread J.A. Sucker's post if you still don't get it. you have failed to see the big picture. y'all really are that dumb running him off.

limon my friend, see you at the bar.

Of course there is a gap. It can be any number of days.

MLB gives lifetime bans for a third positive steroid test (not to mention pete rose). Baseball is also going strong while the nba is about to cancel its season since apparently people aren't paying as much money to watch what's mostly a game of thugs.

Its not like a ban is something new to the internet that 2p2 created that you don't find on every single forum out there.

yeah my question is why didnn't they do that

he had been tamp banned in the past

permaban is one year, right? or did something really awful just happen...

Well, now that Limon is banned I'm off to read some quality posts by RPMSeth. Wish me luck!

hey man, great job finding 1 example in sports of a lifetime ban (pete rose). who else is there? ok, now how about the tens of thousands of guys who have been ejected from games and then get back to business as usual after things cool off? you ready to recognize that, or are we back to pete rose?

you're a joke. Am I banned now?

David Savic, Mohamed bin Hammam, Richard Higham, and a few others here: http://guyism.com/sports/sports-star...eir-sport.html. (some in the link got back in, but that's probably countered by the people in the wiki page I found who I don't think got back in)

BTW, horrible analogy between sports and posting on a website.

"Jamaican sprinter Steve Mullings faces a lifetime ban"

"Cuba's Angel Matos deliberately kicked a referee square in the face after he was disqualified in a bronze-medal match, prompting the World Taekwondo Federation to recommend that he be banned for life."

"The Federation of Football of Kazakhstan has since decided to ban Masimzhanov for life"

"Tucson native and Saguaro High School graduate, Phil Zajicek was given a lifetime ban by the US Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)"

"Daniel Koellerer, a 27-year-old Austrian tennis player who never made an ATP final, has received a lifetime ban"

"CAS upholds lifetime ban on referee Oleh Orekhov"

"SEOUL, July 1 (Yonhap) -- Footballers who recently received lifetime bans from the nation's top professional league for match fixing were handed permanent bans from all football-related positions, the sport's national governing body said Friday.

Korea Football Association (KFA) said 10 of the 11 indicted K-Leaguers will be banned from playing in lower-tier and amateur leagues, and from becoming football coaches and players' agents."

But yeah, Rose was the only one.

2p2 has some of the most petty and self-important moderators in all of the forums i visit. I guess they are made in Malmuth's image somewhat, so it is understandable.

This ban and how it was handled is an absolute disgrace to one of the best posters on this site. Twoplustwo is absolutely horrible about some things.