the principle being that if a language can be used well, then any time it is not used well it is the programmer's fault.

i think the two things are related, that is, a language design affects the likelihood that it will be used well, so there is shared responsibility. basically i don't see the situation as being any different from UI design.

also there are plenty of long blog screeds against php that break down each languague and syntax feature and make arguments about why they suck, so i don't see any logical fallacy there, even if you disagree with the specific points being made.

in any case, i get your annoyance with the whole situation, since anti-php sentiment has a certain apple-esque fanboy flavor to it.

I'm not really a fan of a many functions and keywords. This is actually my main irritation with Python. More specifically: it's the libraries. I write a loop that is pretty good? Oh, darn, I guess I could have used itertools instead. I use a dictionary? Ooops, I guess I should have used default dict instead. It feels like everything that is "built in" is overcome by a library, and this makes no real sense to me, but I guess I'm not out to master a particular language, so this is all something that I am aware of, but not something I am interested in seeking out until I have to. Then again, there are things I have to seek out, like why allow a loop over a list at all when list comprehensions are so much faster? This can't be hard: you can't iterate over an integer like 87651223 unless you convert it to a string! The fact that range() and xrange() exist in Python 2 is awful.

As far as who said few functions originally, I wouldn't know. I know Jerry Sussman said that no programming language should have more keywords than should fit on your fingers and toes in 1985.

You don't need many keywords and built-in functions to create a powerful language. I will assert further that adding keywords and functions actually decreases the expressiveness, and possibly, the power of the language. A good example is iterating over a number, a list, a string, or any object you have. Why do I, in Python, have to write a different function to iterate over each one of these, and why can't I have the best solutions by default in a language that treats all these objects the same? Just give me something that loops and spits out the friggin' answer no matter what I give it.


+1

well said

You are making this way more complicated than it actually is in practice. Use a loop or dictionary unless you have a good reason not too. You should know those other options exist if you need them, but in most cases you just use the built in language constructs.

There is no reason to spend any time wringing your hands trying to decide whether to use a default dict or a regular dict. Just use a regular dict and the situations where where a default dict would be beneficial are easy to spot.

List comprehensions are for constructing a lists of things.

You need for loops for situations like:

What does iteration over an integer even mean? It isn't unambiguous.

I'm kind of indifferent on this one. If you need to iterate over the same list twice it's better to use range. You could of course just do list(xrange).

Can you give an example of where you need to write different function to iterate over a list or string or object? ( I really don't think iteration over a number makes any sense.)

Just to extend on this; If you're doing:

This is better written as:

Pretty much this.

The argument is that it leads people towards bad practices. Early exposure is hard to undo. Bad practices tend to stick.

Disagree. I'll take a C/C++ coder, I'll take a Lisp coder, I'll take a Python coder. And most certainly someone with more exotic languages (preferably Eiffel,Small Talk, Erlang, Lisp, Haskell/ML etc. in that order).
My hatred towards PHP is strong enough to prefer a C# or JAVA coder even.

On a related note I'd add the somewhat controversial claim that job listings for PHP are going to attract less elite people (and also more meh people you don't want to hire) than most other languages c.p. [Java/C# might do worse]

Very easy to filter those people out imo but it's what i hear, too. Best filter imo...ask them if they know Small Talk or the relation it has to Ruby.

---
Also...I'd never outsource coding (outsource as in look at cost as the main decision point/accept mediocre stuff etc). And quite honestly I think people who do will be pretty screwed in the long run. Maybe I'm an elitist but I truely belive that programming is highly creative work where quality trumps everything else. Yeah there's super mondane stuff but I wouldn't outsource that either.

I get your point but my argument is that the wrench they use is so strange that their plumbing technique suffers. I'd also be pretty suspicious of anyone who uses a Windows machine for their development work (unless it's really required i.e. game development etc). I know plenty of people who are pretty good programmers that programm on Windows.
But I mean if there are better tools why stick with the crappy one? Most good developers know 3+ languages fairly well anyways so it's kind of a moot discussion :P

Disagree. Some fault obviously lies with the developer (for example why did he choose such a crappy tool to begin with). But i mean look at a language like Eiffel. There's some philosophy behind languages that gets imprinted on the users mind and also importantly there are certain "community standards" for lack of a better word. For example I'd say that TDD (a good practice imo) is more widespread in other languages...in fact it's the norm in some. I mentioned Eiffel and the design by contract philosophy.

You can laugh at it if you want but I research learning and the brain quite a bit and bad habits are hard to unlearn (it's actually best to learn new habits). There are multiple studies about certain triggers being quite bad (for example telling a kid he/she is a hard worker >> telling them they are smart). My claim is that PHP allows/encourages certain bad habbits and that's bad.

I would bet decent money that c.p. somone who picked up Python as their first language would turn out to be a better programmer than someone who picked up PHP first.

For lack of a better word I'm aesthetically offended by such a cluster**** of a quickref. For a longer explaination why it is indeed bad...see the Hickey talk about entangling someone linked ITT.

Edit: Rich Hickey: Simplicity Matters

You disagree? Based on what?

My statement clearly was intended to suggest that the saturation of PHP developers implies fiercer competition for employment in comparison to positions requiring a more scarce skill set. If you cannot understand that, there is no use in further debate.

Jesus. You literally just illustrated my point.

Do you not see that the first sentence is in contradiction wtih the second sentence? Put them in separate quotes and it looks like two people arguing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by clowntable-personality1
I'd also be pretty suspicious of anyone who uses a Windows machine for their development work (unless it's really required i.e. game development etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by clowntable-personality2
I know plenty of people who are pretty good programmers that programm on Windows.

You disagree? Based on what?

I'll say it again -- the fact that good PHP code exists is proof that it is possible to write good PHP code.

There are people in this forum outside of the Programming board with expert knowledge of logic theory. If you'd like, I'll invite them here to evaluate the validity of my statement.

I explained this ITT, but I'll repeat it.

Decision makers within a language community are obligated to make decisions consistent with the best interests of the community. A seasoned user is more valuable to the community than the potential value of a prospective user because the new user's future is uncertain. Therefore, the interests of prospective users cannot carry the same weight as the interests of current users. Note that this does NOT mean that the interests of both groups cannot coincide.

If you're offended because you think I'm hostile to beginners, go read my post history. I am constantly offering encouragement and advice to beginners. On several instances I've challenged posters, often aggressively, because I thought they were being hostile or discouraging to beginners. Even as I type this, I have PMs to answer from people seeking Javascript help.

I really think you would benefit from taking a step back and evaluating your position more objectively. Using words like "hatred" in reference to inanimate, morally-neutral entities suggests to me that you're assessment has not been rationally considered.

Yes, exactly. This precisely summarizes my argument.

I actually think that it can be distinguished from UI design because with UI there are limited, specific, defined purposes for each element of the design. Moreover, UI designers usually have a specific behavior they'd like to illicit from the user. With programming languages, though, flexibility is key.

There are also plenty of rebuttals, but it's more fashionable to link articles on how PHP sucks. Here is someone dismantling "Fractal" in a-bomb fashion.

+1

Good post.


I don't understand why people think PHP being easy to use is a bad thing. That is a great feature. Having lots of people write code is a good thing. Who cares if their code sucks? The more people in the world that can write a little bit of code the better IMO.

I applaud PHP, warts and all, for bringing programming to a wider audience.

you seem to be directly contradicting yourself here. also, by your argument, there is essentially no language that can ever be criticized, since every language has some set of expert users who make productive use of it.

that's why i'm saying you can't argue this from principle alone. you have to get into the nitty gritty of the language and make very specific arguments.


I think this is clearly false. Think of something like excel. It's incredibly flexible and is designed and intended for open-ended use cases.


this is the only way the argument should proceed, with specific, point by point critiques.

that said, i happen to disagree with a theme that runs throughout this rebuttal, and seems also to be your central thesis: "This, again, is him assuming that it's the language's responsibility to be understood, rather than his responsibility to understand it."

basically, as a principle take literally, it's just not true. if someone writes in an extremely dense and opaque style, we blame the writer, not the reader. if a car dashboard is unintuitive to use, we blame the manufacturer, not the driver. there are a million examples. again, there is obviously shared responsibility in all these cases in different degrees, but often it is entirely justifiable and correct to put the lion's share of the blame on the designer. in the case of php, i don't know what the appropriate distribution of blame is (there are plenty of lazy and incompetent developers), but imo there are many obvious flaws in the language for which there is no rightful defense.

Ryan,
Java doesn't have import aliases. You can import the enclosing class and then do CLASS_NAME.ENUM_NAME. I don't remember, you might be able to import the enum directly and just use it. I'm not at a computer so I can't check right now.

Neko,
Python and Java are very different beasts. Java makes you work really hard to treat a class as just another variable.

The confusion on this point is my fault.

I was saying that the creators of the language should be criticized for their effort based on the assumption that their intent was only to achieve exclusivity:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdturner02

Such an endeavor with almost zero utility certainly deserves harsh criticism.

It is not clearly false, as evidenced by your use of subjective terms to suggest otherwise. Among UI designs, of course there are varying degrees of specificity for possible user behavior. But I can't agree that the spectrum of use cases for Excel, or any other software package, even begins to match the potential uses for a programming language. You seem to be ignoring that software packages are built with programming languages.

I happen to agree with his theme, as it were. This appears to be the root of our disagreement. I can accept that we have differing philosophical perspectives on personal accountability.

well, i accept that we have a philosophical disagreement which we won't resolve, but i don't accept that characterization of it at all

what you'd call taking personal responsibility i'd call refusing to insist on high standards and failing to value your own time.

you really don't have much ground to stand on, imo, unless you are arguing that php is actually as good as or better than alternative languages. because if you aren't arguing that, then logically you must be arguing that people should not complain about inferior products, just because, with enough effort, those inferior products can be used fruitfully.

Haha okay, I admit that I framed that as a bit of a slight. Fwiw, I felt slightly guilty about it afterward. Haha

I'm not making any argument that compares PHP to another language. The two conditions you're offering are NOT mutually exclusive.

sd,

i'm going to end this on an unrelated note of coolness everyone will appreciate:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table

I would have sacrificed a virgin to use this when I was debugging that spell checker last week. I'm just pissed I didn't know about this when it was still open so I could ship him 50 bucks for a license and beta access.

looks like you might be able to play around with it:

http://app.kodowa.com/playground

I checked and you can import the enum directly.

You can do even better, see accepted answer here:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1...fying-its-type

That's a good point. I've only used static imports for JUnit/Hamcrest/Mockito methods in my unit tests. Since you already have the context of the unit test, requiring the class for each call is unnecessarily verbose (it's funny because we are talking about Java). I think the way the linked question poses it, that is a similar case for the static import making sense. However, I'd be hesitent to do it when the enum is defined one place and the value is being directly accessed somewhere else.

Here's the main page for Light Table.

http://www.chris-granger.com

Chris Granger has done some pretty amazing things for Clojure, including Noir and Korma. Not sure how well it would work with PHP though unless there's a bona fide REPL environment. I think adding support for Python is the right direction, but I digress.

I haven't used Light Table yet, but it looks pretty cool.

I'm actually much more interested in using it for Javascript than for anything server side. As far as I'm aware, the only way to get the value of something in JS at a particular moment is with console.log() or alert(). That's gets so tedious when there are several different points where the bug could be.

If someone has a better way you'll be my new best friend.

Seeing that it's 769 lines long I can't imagine having to debug it the way your saying. That's understandable. I take it gaming_mouse's word for it if he says it's well-written. I really envy your js skills as js is one of those things I never took the time to dive into and I always think of it as some powerful, albeit slippery (??) language.

Nice-looking site and idea, too.

sdturner02,
Firebug has a debugger that lets you set break points in the javascript.

daveT,
700+ lines is more than enough to screw something up royaly.