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05-21-2016 , 12:06 PM
Hey suzzer, while you're kind of on work holiday why don't you disrupt the exercise industry?

Seems like personal trainers could earn more per hour giving personalized lessons, and non using members wouldn't have to subsidize people who come frequently.

Think uber for golds gym.
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05-21-2016 , 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
Hey suzzer, while you're kind of on work holiday why don't you disrupt the exercise industry?

Seems like personal trainers could earn more per hour giving personalized lessons, and non using members wouldn't have to subsidize people who come frequently.

Think uber for golds gym.
Personal training is kind of a scam, though. There's a nugget of an idea in here, though. A lot of people would work out at home if they could, but there's the issue of equipment and space. A travelling van with a squat rack and weights might actually be kind of interesting. You only need that stuff around for 3 hours/week but you have to store it 24x7/365.

It is kind of sad that the basic gym business model is only possible if you can convince most of your customers to never use your service.
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05-21-2016 , 01:47 PM
Micro gyms maybe? Rent small office space, have trainer on hand with scheduling?

I feel like a lot of people fail in the exercise and fitness goals due to a lack of proper planning/no direction.

Could even do surge pricing for prime time slots.
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05-21-2016 , 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks
Docker is unstable and tempermental on osx, to say the least.
What problems have you noticed?

I have a bunch of people on OSX who are using it without issues and have been for at least 6 months. I also just moved a client and his team into using Docker and all of them are on OSX and they are loving in.

It's a million times better on OSX than it was about a year ago.
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05-21-2016 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
What problems have you noticed?

I have a bunch of people on OSX who are using it without issues and have been for at least 6 months. I also just moved a client and his team into using Docker and all of them are on OSX and they are loving in.

It's a million times better on OSX than it was about a year ago.
boot2docker was a hot mess. docker-machine is somewhat better but nearly everyone lost a full day to trying to get it to work. brew/macports incompatibilities (i.e. you need this exact version of openssl and this exact version of docker-compose etc etc). There's is allegedly a new native docker-machine that is supposed to be better but I can't afford to try it (time wise)

Even with docker-machine, I pretty much have to restart the VM and all my containers any time anything changes with my network config. This is partially blamable on our network config at work but it's very annoying. It's very common for stuff to stop working, and when it does, the only answer is, in this order:
0. Have you docker pulled all the newest containers?
1. have you tried killing/rming/recreating your containers?
2. have you tried docker-machine restart?
3. have to tried docker-machine stop + docker-machine start (!!)
4. have you tried restarting VirtualBox?
5. have you tried restarting your machine?
6. have you tried completely re-creating your virtual machine?
Wow, great, 7 seperate versions of "have you tried turning it off and on again?

Sometimes, like, #2 will work, but only after trying it N times.

I also still do not understand why docker pulls are so ****ing slow. It seems like it is completely re-downloading the whole thing every time you do it. We have a ****load of containers and whenever I have to pull all of them I might as well go get a coffee, take a dump, play ping pong and maybe take a walk.
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05-21-2016 , 03:36 PM
We started to use Docker and I couldn't imagine using it in a large "mission critical" prod environment.

I'm not hands on, but what Rusty is saying is a lot of the same issues our people were having, plus Docker hub doesn't seem overall reliable enough right now.
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05-21-2016 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Legend
We started to use Docker and I couldn't imagine using it in a large "mission critical" prod environment.
We use it in production, and frankly, for that it's been really great. You have a fairly high assurance that your dev environment matches your prod environment, and you can try out changes to your prod environment in a safe way. Basically if it works for me, and the tests pass, it'll probably work in prod. Also, although the builds can take a while depending, once it's built, deploying is super simple. Rolling back to a known good image is super simple and can be done in seconds. That gives us the comfort to make spur of the moment releases, because if it ****s up, roll it back, nbd.

We have the ability to do blue/green deployment but a lot of the time I don't even bother, because it'll be offline for such a short period of time it might not even really inconvenience anyone. (I'm usually deploying backend services though, who's temporary outage is unlikely to be a problem)
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05-21-2016 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks
Personal training is kind of a scam, though. There's a nugget of an idea in here, though. A lot of people would work out at home if they could, but there's the issue of equipment and space. A travelling van with a squat rack and weights might actually be kind of interesting. You only need that stuff around for 3 hours/week but you have to store it 24x7/365.

It is kind of sad that the basic gym business model is only possible if you can convince most of your customers to never use your service.
In Australia a few years back they had traveling training sessions that would meet in little parks around Melbourne with a van load of gear and a couple of trainers.
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05-21-2016 , 04:30 PM
The issue with gyms is that they only cater to a select few types of people. You either go to lift weights or do Yoga / Pilates. Most people, especially those that really need it, would do better by walking for 3 miles a day.

Sadly, exercise has been conflated with doing squats and pull ups -vs- some notion of doing nothing at all, which is just stupid on so many levels, especially for marketing. You can get wonderful exercise by walking along a river, going to circuit parks, riding a bike, dancing, going to a roller skating rink, etc. The idea is finding something you want to do, and not caring about keeping tabs on calories burned. I think personal trainers would be better marketed as "do some fun activity" BFFs, not health advisers.
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05-21-2016 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
The issue with gyms is that they only cater to a select few types of people. You either go to lift weights or do Yoga / Pilates. Most people, especially those that really need it, would do better by walking for 3 miles a day.

I think personal trainers would be better marketed as "do some fun activity" BFFs, not health advisers.
Hence my idea of a personal trainer figuring out a personalized exercise plan. Like, a combo personal trainer/physical therapist. Someone who can help figure out a plan for anyone from the super lifters to the health impaired.
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05-21-2016 , 05:48 PM
I knew quite a few personal trainers and nutritionists. For the most part, the private ones were treated more as cheap psychologists than anything else.

A PT is supposed to figure out a personalized training and nutrition plan. That's like, their job and what passing the various credential tests require.
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05-21-2016 , 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks
boot2docker was a hot mess. docker-machine is somewhat better but nearly everyone lost a full day to trying to get it to work. brew/macports incompatibilities (i.e. you need this exact version of openssl and this exact version of docker-compose etc etc). There's is allegedly a new native docker-machine that is supposed to be better but I can't afford to try it (time wise)

Even with docker-machine, I pretty much have to restart the VM and all my containers any time anything changes with my network config. This is partially blamable on our network config at work but it's very annoying. It's very common for stuff to stop working, and when it does, the only answer is, in this order:
0. Have you docker pulled all the newest containers?
1. have you tried killing/rming/recreating your containers?
2. have you tried docker-machine restart?
3. have to tried docker-machine stop + docker-machine start (!!)
4. have you tried restarting VirtualBox?
5. have you tried restarting your machine?
6. have you tried completely re-creating your virtual machine?
Wow, great, 7 seperate versions of "have you tried turning it off and on again?

Sometimes, like, #2 will work, but only after trying it N times.

I also still do not understand why docker pulls are so ****ing slow. It seems like it is completely re-downloading the whole thing every time you do it. We have a ****load of containers and whenever I have to pull all of them I might as well go get a coffee, take a dump, play ping pong and maybe take a walk.
Docker Compose is totally separate from Docker, and as of many months ago you can just use https://www.docker.com/products/docker-toolbox, which installs a compatible Docker / Docker Machine / Docker Compose combo. I've encountered 0 issues from anyone on OSX who used the toolbox to get everything running.

Docker Machine still uses boot2docker under the hood, but it's completely abstracted away from you. The native solution that's been recently available via private beta does not use boot2docker and is super nice.

Sounds like your very specific work related network settings are giving you a lot of issues that others are not seeing regularly. Nearly everything on your list isn't part of a typical work flow that's working as intended. Have you tried researching the cause of these issues, or asking the Docker team for help?

What version of Docker and Docker Compose are you using? Docker 1.10+ and Compose 1.7+ have some very nice networking features that may help you out. It's like 3 lines of yaml to define your own public (or private if you'd like) network.

Your Docker pull issue doesn't sound right. It sounds like maybe you have something mis-configured and you're using a new docker machine instance or something on each pull.

It will only pull the diff between what you have locally and what needs to be pulled. It takes me literally 3 seconds to pull down a 300mb image when there's only been an application code change because the diff is only like 10mb. Also as of 1.10 (I think it's 1.10), each layer can be pulled in parallel.

The only time it may take a little long is the very first pull, but it's a billion times faster than pulling down a vagrant box or using a configuration management tool to bootstrap your dev environment. Especially since you're only bound by network speed. When I pull things on DO it's crazy fast. The postgres image is like 200mb and it fully pulls in like 5 seconds.

My dev work flow (and everyone else who I set up with Docker in the last ~5-6 months is):

1. docker-compose up
2. Wait an initial time of 20 seconds to 2 minutes for the first pull (depends on how fast their network is)
3. Wait 1 second to 5 min to build their application (greatly depends on what's being built, initial gem/pip install time, etc.)
4. View the app successfully in their browser
5. Make a code change
6. View the new changes in their browser instantly or see test output if doing strict TDD
7. Ready to stop coding? Kill docker compose
8. Ready to start coding later? docker-compose up and everything is running in 3 seconds (even if you need to start 8 containers)

The above work flow is only altered for OSX/Windows users by making sure you have a docker machine VM running beforehand, which is a 1 command thing that you'd do once per workstation reboot. When the native solution is publicly available you won't even need to do this too.

Edit: If you need any help setting this stuff up, let me know. Just shoot me a PM.

Last edited by Shoe Lace; 05-21-2016 at 06:33 PM.
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05-21-2016 , 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
Docker Machine still uses boot2docker under the hood, but it's completely abstracted away from you. The native solution that's been recently available via private beta does not use boot2docker and is super nice.
We apparently have access to it. I'm not really interested in being a beta tester for it.

Quote:
Sounds like your very specific work related network settings are giving you a lot of issues that others are not seeing regularly. Nearly everything on your list isn't part of a typical work flow that's working as intended. Have you tried researching the cause of these issues, or asking the Docker team for help?
We have a team of people to work on this kind of stuff, it's not really "my problem" except that it is, because I often can't get **** to work. But basically I don't have time to spend making docker my bitch so mostly I just try to work around it.

Quote:
What version of Docker and Docker Compose are you using? Docker 1.10+ and Compose 1.7+ have some very nice networking features that may help you out. It's like 3 lines of yaml to define your own public (or private if you'd like) network.
I don't know. But the problems we have are that depending on which network you're on, you'll have different nameservers. If you are on network A, but using network B's nameservers, stuff won't resolve and vice versa. The docker containers get the DNS from the host system when they start.

Quote:
Your Docker pull issue doesn't sound right. It sounds like maybe you have something mis-configured and you're using a new docker machine instance or something on each pull.
I think the problem is actually that we are probably building containers from scratch every time. At least, I suspect that's what happens in our build system. I assume it's on purpose (either some limitation in our build system, or possibly some fear of not starting from a clean slate, I really don't know). Downloading a full complement of container (we have many) takes 40-60 minutes.

Quote:
Edit: If you need any help setting this stuff up, let me know. Just shoot me a PM.
I don't really have much flexibility in my tooling. Maybe the docker tools thing would work with the rest of the stuff we have, maybe it wouldn't, but I honestly can't risk it. Last time I tried someone's idea to fix stuff, I didn't have a working set of containers for 2 days. It's a little hard to explain to your boss that you spent the last 2 days ****ing with VMs and didn't get any work done.
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05-21-2016 , 07:21 PM
You can figure out which versions you're using by running docker --version and docker-compose --version.

It sounds like to me that despite it being super painful to use (which IMO can be fixed), you don't really care enough to fix it.

Not really sure what to say about that, other than I can assure you it's not this bad for everyone else.

I wasn't going to fix your issue directly btw, but I can likely put you in communication with someone who works at Docker or point you to official resources to get things running.

Also out of 3,000 students who have taken my Docker courses I have not had a single report of anyone experiencing as much problems as you. The main gotcha I've seen from OSX devs is they forget to access their docker machine IP and use localhost by mistake, but that is a non-issue with the native implementation.
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05-21-2016 , 08:05 PM
Yeah, i don't have my dev machine with me. And yeah, it sucks but basically it works well enough to get work done, and i have way too much stuff to do, right now, to spend my time debugging it. Which I'm a little annoyed by, because debugging it sort of shouldn't be my problem
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05-22-2016 , 06:58 AM
I did enjoy the candybar performance art that has been ongoing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
The issue with gyms is that they only cater to a select few types of people. You either go to lift weights or do Yoga / Pilates. Most people, especially those that really need it, would do better by walking for 3 miles a day.

Sadly, exercise has been conflated with doing squats and pull ups -vs- some notion of doing nothing at all, which is just stupid on so many levels, especially for marketing. You can get wonderful exercise by walking along a river, going to circuit parks, riding a bike, dancing, going to a roller skating rink, etc. The idea is finding something you want to do, and not caring about keeping tabs on calories burned. I think personal trainers would be better marketed as "do some fun activity" BFFs, not health advisers.
Just a quick caveat. The bulk of "health" benefits come from a raised heartrate, which walking likely won't provide (leisurely cycling as well). Tho some of the others (dancing) might. The other benefits are mostly from doing some sort of high resistance work, whether it be running fast, lifting weights, or something.

I do agree with you that getting people to do something is far better than nothing. (I don't even pullup... well rarely. But I do squat!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
Hence my idea of a personal trainer figuring out a personalized exercise plan. Like, a combo personal trainer/physical therapist. Someone who can help figure out a plan for anyone from the super lifters to the health impaired.
The most important aspect of personal training is mostly being a cheerleader. There are plenty of people who have been going to gyms for years alone as middle aged folks and don't need support groups. However, there is this vast segment of the population that needs some form of accountability to not miss workouts, etc. It is kinda weird.

But ya, everyone should try to get some exercise, even if super fat! (That could be just walking if super fat.)

Some questions I had about the container questions:
1) Are the docker comments specific to that tech or could be generalized to all containers?
2) Is there a good primer on containers vs virtualization? I've never used them before and would like to learn something about them apart from the google compute sales page.
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05-22-2016 , 08:36 AM
Quote:
1) Are the docker comments specific to that tech or could be generalized to all containers?
2) Is there a good primer on containers vs virtualization? I've never used them before and would like to learn something about them apart from the google compute sales page.
1) Do you mean alternative container technologies? I see Docker as more of a framework for container management, it has a lot of tools and it's powered by the OCI ( https://www.opencontainers.org/ ).

2) A VM spins up an entire guest OS, but Docker uses lower level Linux kernel libraries to fully sandbox an application in its own little world. A 2min intro on the differences can be found at https://www.docker.com/what-docker.
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05-22-2016 , 09:26 AM
Is buying a used MacBook pro on ebay a bad idea?

I'm also in the market for a machine as well and the idea of buying one new just seems like burning money.
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05-22-2016 , 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Legend
Is buying a used MacBook pro on ebay a bad idea?

I'm also in the market for a machine as well and the idea of buying one new just seems like burning money.
I would rather buy from a reputable refurbish shop than used Ebay.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
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05-22-2016 , 10:34 AM
I've got a first gen retina i7 mbp for $500 Larry.
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05-22-2016 , 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
1) Do you mean alternative container technologies? I see Docker as more of a framework for container management, it has a lot of tools and it's powered by the OCI ( https://www.opencontainers.org/ ).

2) A VM spins up an entire guest OS, but Docker uses lower level Linux kernel libraries to fully sandbox an application in its own little world. A 2min intro on the differences can be found at https://www.docker.com/what-docker.
1) Yea, like the google specific implementation etc. So a good comparison is it used like REST API or oauth2, where they mean meaningfully different things to different people, or do people specifically mean just docker.

2) Thanks! I'll dig into that later.
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05-22-2016 , 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Legend
Is buying a used MacBook pro on ebay a bad idea?
Find out how many battery cycles, then decide from there
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05-22-2016 , 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo
I've got a first gen retina i7 mbp for $500 Larry.
Assuming the other specs are solid I'll do this
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05-23-2016 , 02:18 PM
data structures final today, made a 12 page study guide for a test i need a 20% on to pass the class

still nervous. **** AVL trees, i can never get the rotations right
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05-23-2016 , 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Legend
Assuming the other specs are solid I'll do this
If Larry backs out I might be interested.
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