The difference is that when Jordan had unwinnable situations he lost in the first round, thereby preserving his 6-0 finals record that all Jordan worshippers jerk off over.

When prime LeBron James is given a garbage roster he makes the conference finals or NBA finals and then is criticized by the same Jordan worshippers for not being able to win.

This isn't hard to understand, but losing in the finals is objectively better than losing in the first or second round.

You musn't fall into the trap of thinking that a future GOAT has to be better than LeBron James at everything, including playmaking. LeBron isn't better than Jordan at everything either.

There can be different paths to greatness. This is the trap Jordan worshippers fall into. They see Jordan as the platonic ideal of basketball GOATness, and won't admit that anyone will ever be better unless they go 7-0 in the finals while winning the scoring title every year. To them, doing anything differently is disqualifying.

So don't fall into the same trap of thinking that the future GOAT has to look like LeBron, but better.

That's blasphemous.. Jordan shot 10 percentage points better than Westbrook with HALF the turnovers (goat IQ), plus a million other intangibles and factors including height, post ability, goat jumpshooting, leadership and DEFENSE.

So you're crazy.

Media and players said that Jordan was already better than Magic, Isiah and Stockton after just a few games at the position in 1989 - google "Jordan best PG ever" it and this info will pop up instantly..

30/10/10 with great efficiency and low turnovers (not Westbrook).. This was 30 years before the 30/10/10 era and format.




I didn't say it makes Jordan a better passer but it confirms that he was all-time level at the point guard skillset (Lebron's skillset), while Lebron lacks this versatility because he isn't all-time off-ball (jumpshooting).

Ultimately, when Jordan was instantly the best PG in 89' after just a few games at the position, it showed goat natural talent for the game of basketball.

Btw, Jordan is also the only player ever to average 10 assists in a playoff series without being his team's points guard or primary ball-handler (91' Finals).

Jordan being the best "point guard" in 1989 is more indicative of how the game has evolved in the last 35 years.

Back in 1989, a good prototypical point guard was Mark Jackson. Someone who dribbled the ball up the court, looked to find teammates, and didn't really try to score for himself. This was considered "good" back then. If you were a GOOD SCORER in 1989 you played shooting guard, point guard was for passers only.

Fast forward to 2024, when all players are more capable scorers and shooters, and the point guard is the best player and number 1 option on many teams (Luka, SGA, Jalen Brunson, etc...). All of these players would have been shooting guards in 1989. Nowadays, point guard is the superior position and you only play shooting guard if you can't pass. Everyone is expected to score.

So Jordan instantly becoming the "best point guard" in 1989 isn't the flex you think it is. The position was trash overall.

We don't need to because we have Westbrook, Luka, Harden, Nash, CP3 and many more.

History shows that high APG almost never wins and it needs exhorbitant help.

Specifically, Cousy had 3 titles where he averaged 8-9 assists and 1 for Isiah or Lebron, while Magic was a massive underachiever - his 5-4 Finals record means that Lebron/Magic are 9-10 on the Finals level - if they can't be winners with ball-dominance than no one can.. It's just a losing brand of ball that needs the most help ever (and still mostly loses).

The casts tell the story - ball-dominators need Kareem, Russell, AD, and Wade, while jumpshooters needed Klay, Pippen, and Pau... That's a massive gap in help needed.. ball-dominators need goats like Kareem and Russell, while jumpshooters need Wiggins or Pippen... It should be intuitive that "passers" need all-time scorers and producers to pass to - this includes Kareem, Wade, AD and Kyrie, plus franchise players at 3rd option as well.

Since the point guard skillset needs so much help, it's inferior to other skillsets like fundamental bigs or jumpshooters that win more with less... Every playground king is a ball-dominator and if you give a baby a basketball they immediately start pounding it (dominating the ball) - it's simply the easiest most beginner way to play the game and the best players ever evolved past this stage.
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There were no 30/10/10 players in the 70's or 80's, so Jordan was like today's modern player like Luka or Lebron being dropped into 1989... Jordan was still only.500 during that stretch (which is good with that cast) but the outlook and team ceiling was lower with Jordan getting 30 in a ball-dominant capacity than in a ball movement and jumpshooting capacity (system basketball, aka triangle)

FACTS also:

You don't even have to go back a full year for this to be false. Jokic did it twice last year.

But there's levels to greatness and only Jordan achieved the highest level that includes the longest stretch of goat winning and goat individual dominance simultaneously.. It's the goat standard.. He also had the least help of anyone that reached an "unbeatable" or "dynasty" level of winning.

Otoh, Lebron hasn't reached goat winning, while the stats and accolades show that he didn't reach Jordan's dominance either, on either end of the floor, while also needing a lot more help.

Jokic is literally the only other example, which is why I forgot about him

Only Jordan and Jokic did it and Jordan was the only guy for a long time (30 years)..

That's why I say that Jordan is more of a point-center than Lebron because Jordan plays more like Jokic (post, high post, etc) but he can also play Luka/Lebron-ball too

Yeah Jordan had so little "help" that his "help" won 55 games without him and Scottie Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting in his lone year as number 1 option.

Don't waste people's time with this garbage.

You act like Pippen could build a 50-win team from scratch - what would the bulls become if MJ didn't exist in 1989? How many titles?..

So cut the crap - MJ toiled away and built the team, while Pippen was handed the most well-oiled machine ever and it died in less than 18 months - the Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned..

Most importantly, opponents didn't circle their calendar or plan what they would tell grandkids - no one gave a sh** about playing the 94' Bulls - seeing the Bulls team on the other end of the court without the goat was a huge letdown and the Bulls flew under the radar all year.. But the cat was out of the bag in 95' and the "real" Bulls without MJ were headed for a lottery future until MJ restored 3-peat caliber.

Jokic, Kawhi, Giannis and Curry aren't point guards yet they have all the regular titles since 2017.

Non-ball-dominators will CONTINUE to have most of the titles, while Luka, SGA and Lebron mostly lose regardless of cast

Lmao.... Watch SGA get smashed in these playoffs via bad loss like Lebron in 08', 09' and 10' before he gave up on chemistry and started teaming up.. It's hard to develop the necessary chemistry as a dumb ball-dominator that imposes spot-up roles.. SGA will get his first lesson im these playoffs.

So anyway, your entire argument just went to pieces - ball-dominators today are losers just like they always have been with rare exception... Meanwhile, Jordan is immune because he could play 30/10/10 like the modern SGA or Lebron style, or he can play like Curry, Bird and Jokic (winning basketball).

That's why he's the GOAT by a wide margin... No one was considered his challenger until the fake debate with Lebron began and now guys like Kareem and Russell are brought up when they never were before.

Lebron would have zero rings if he doesn't make the "decision" to team-up with everyone.. No one else was teaming up from 2011-2016, so Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. Only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16') until Durant finally responded.

That's the historical record... Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight until the;"decision" to use a cheat code.. He gave up on the chemistry learning curve and opted for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy).. So he never really learned how to win (chemistry) and only learned how to team-up (talent-based winning).

Stinks

You're gonna be all surprised and sad about him just like you are about Cade.. lol.. carry on

Shaq was 35 like Rodman and he would've been the best center Jordan ever had:

2010 Shaq................... 12/7 and 1.5 block
1989 Cartwright......... 12/7 and 0.5 block

So would Zydrunas, Mosgov, Mcgee or Tristan

And the 66-win Cavs also added a 3rd option that was a better scorer than Pippen (Jamison), so they had more scoring options and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. (And they had better defenses back in 07' when Lebron wasn't all-defense)

Regular line only.

There are no examples of MJ shooting below today's standard when he had today's volumes, and this includes seasons or series from the regular line..

Regular line is all that matters because we're measuring how MJ would do in today's game, which uses the regular line - the "long two" distance is irrelevant and that's why you don't hear me reference Jordan's better volume or efficiency during the "shortened line" years. I've only ever referenced the his regular line percentages and always state this as well.

So again, Jordan had better offensive rebounds, BPG, SPG, turnover rate, FT %, jumpshooting, scoring, defense, clutch, off-ball, post, chemistry, teammate development.. that's basically everything..

(edit: there is one season or series from regular line where MJ shot below today's standard from three and it was the 90' ECF).




True shooting in the Finals


96' BULLS.................. 50.9
96' JORDAN............... 53.8

13' HEAT..................... 54.5
13' LEBRON............... 52.9


The Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 13' Finals (zero plus/minus and negative net rating for Lebron in the series)

Btw, Pippen had 42.9 TS in the 96' Finals and 46.9 in the 93' Finals (0% on threes)..

With Pippen at 15.7 on 34% for the 96' Finals, this was an example of Jordan beating a top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring &: efficiency from a sidekick (carry-job vs top team), which Lebron has never done.. Furthermore, Jordan defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load on championship level), which Lebron has also never accomplished.

its worth noting that Lebron had 0 titles and 1 finals appearance before stacking the deck in his favor by teaming up with 3 superstars who were all in their primes at a time when most other teams had one star (Dwight, Dirk, Melo) or two stars (Kobe/Pau, Nash/Amare) or 3 really old stars (50 win Celtics). It's very selective LebronFan memory to only remember 2016 offseason but completely forget about the 2010 "Decision" which is what started the arms race in the first place.

twoPlusTwo - the one place in the universe where Lebron is on the same level of passing as Jokic

What were Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen in 2008?

Shaq was literally 38 in 2010, and had 1.2 blocks, not 1.5.

Can you go 1 post without blatant lies?

Also the idea that 38-year old Shaq was better than any center Jordan ever had is ludicrous, and typical TWOG propaganda.

In the 90s, teams played 2-center line-ups. A "power forward" back then was just a slightly shorter center, with the same skillset of being a big donkey who rebounds and can't dribble or shoot the ball. Superstars like Malone and Barkley were the exception, but the average starting power forward only had "center skills" by modern standards.

So 38-year old Shaq was nowhere near as good as Horace Grant in his prime.

In what world is Curry not a PG/ball dominator? He is listed at PG and while his time of possession isn't as extreme as some others he was still, by a distance, the leading ball handler on the Warriors for every title.

Lebron's first playoff teams included a 2x all-star center, HOF coach, top defenses, and an all-defensive acquisition that averaged 22/5/5.

So Lebron's first playoff teams were high seeds and far superior to any of Jordan's casts in the 80's, which had zero players with all-star or all-defensive experience, and no coaching.

Both Jordan and Lebron started with lottery rosters, but Lebron had 3 years to develop a veteran, high seed before entering his first playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in year 1.. Despite the headstart, Lebron still had a 45-win team in Year 5 (2008) until he received more all-star help in 2009.

Furthermore, Antawn Jamison was 3rd option but is a better scorer than Pippen, so the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And they had better defenses back in 2007 when Lebron wasn't all-defense.

Ultimately, in 1989, Jordan had the worst cast in the league, yet his low seed took the Pistons to 6 games, while Lebron's high seed was swept by the Spurs in 2007.. Before facing the Pistons, Jordan had massive upset wins against Ewing's Knicks and #1 SRS Cavs - it's significant that Pippen averaged 15 on 40% against the Cavs because Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades).

Curry is literally the greatest off-ball player to ever play.. The greatest jumpshooter of all-time... And yes, his time of possessions is extremely low for someone that brings the ball up..

his ability to drop 40 while the ball moves is why he can effectively carry the scoring load, aka he has sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams and this carry-job ability against top teams allows him to win with less scoring help like Klay instead of Wade or AD... otoh, lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he loses at 38 ppg as historic favorite to Dwight..

Meanwhile, Jordan is similar to Curry in that he allows the ball to move, so he can effectively carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore win with weak scoring help like Pippen.. Essentially, ball-dominators aren't as good at carrying the scoring load, so they need more help.

2010 Shaq was equal to prime Horace and just a little below PEAK horace of (94' and 95') - so horace isn't a bad comparison to show Shaq's caliber at that time

But regardless, we know that Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen and he played 3rd option for the Cavs, so the Cavs had more scoring options and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And the Cavs had better defenses back in 07' before Lebron was all-defense - they simply had far more good defenders like Zydrunas, Varejao, Delonte, Snow, Hughes, Ben Wallace and much more... plus Mike Brown is a reputed defensive coach, while the 80's Bulls had no coaching or players with any accolade whatsoever.