It was a shortened season due to the lockout. That would have worked in their favor.

Iirc, Jordan didn't want to come back because Krause had said publicly he wasn't renewing Phil Jackson's contract and Jordan didn't want to play for a new coach. Then the lockout happened and Jordan retired rather than getting involved in that mess.

I think had Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, a good PF, and Phil Jackson been given another chance, they might have been able to win 1 more, but it definitely wouldn't have been easy. Rodman likely wasn't coming back, as his shenanigans were crazy that last year and everyone was fed up with him by that point.

I just think you should go until you lose it.

Short season would have helped. Being that the 500 Knicks made the Finals can't see why the Bulls couldn't have got that far.

LeBrons series against the Warriors was tremendous, but I still believe Jordan's versus the Sun's in 93, specifically games 2, 3, and 4 since you mentioned 3 game stretch is better. Very difficult to argue against it.

Do you believe that era makes a difference? Because if so, do you really believe LeBron is more feared than Jordan was in his era? Who dominated it more?

For me, that's pretty much what matters.

Ben Wallace made all defensive team in 2007. Of course, we know he was washed at 33 years old, the very next year, when he joined Lebron.

Super team = Multiple All Stars (typically)

Multiple All Star =/ Super team

Huh?! The Bulls went from 3 peat champs, to a 55 win team that got bounced in the second round ... while Pippen was in the process of blowing up the team with his temper tantrums and pouting. How did they look the next year before Jordan came back?

I don’t think it’s all that difficult to argue three elimination games on the trot to achieve something that had never been done before (while leading all players in all counting stats) as better tbh.

I just learned something new today btw!

2019 Raptors with Kawhi won the championship ... he leaves the next season AND THEY STILL WON 53 GAMES WITHOUT HIM!!!! SUPER TEAM!! Quite impossible to call them anything less!

Scottie Pippen in 1994 = 1st team all-nba and 1st team all defence. Was also 3rd in MVP votes.
Horace Grant made all-star in 1994

Super team with Jordan on it.


Any other top 5, top 10 players on that 2019 Raptors team? No? Ok.

The team only won 55 games without Jordan and made the 2nd round! Bounced in the 2nd round = taking the Knicks (who made the finals) to 7 games, with 1 bad ref call away from making ECF.

What a bunch of scrubs Jordan had to play with!

Philly has the MVP Joel Embiid and James Harden and only managed to win 54 games this year!

Literally no one will ever put the Suns in the same stratosphere as the 2016 Warriors.

One of them was just a good team in the 90s, the other won 73 games and was 5 points in game 7 finals from being crowned the greatest team of all time.

Jordan did not dominate the 80s when there were super teams galore.

Individually he was all time. But his team sucked. Then he got a great team around him in the early 90s and took off and there were no other great teams to challenge him like in the 80s or early 2000s.

but mj wasnt on it when that happened in 94 ?
and u told me all stars means nothing for super team previously ?

u cant say they suck and are great at the same time ?
ie: orlando 1995 (with grant as a third option being an all star in 94) and they got swept in final but yet its a weak era ?

ps: fwiw pipen made all stars in 1990 (with no other accolade like 3rd team defensive or w.e) but no all star in 1991(tho he end up 2nd all nba defensive) when bulls won.
pippen really started to shine in 1992 but mj already won a ring vs team like lakers and beat detroit post season prior....
pippen and grant just got better over time

The Athletic

Yeah look, I find this thread wild (I mean I always did, but it’s particularly mad these days) as one side of the coin refuses to moderate its position even a little bit despite watching a 38 year old LeBron be still one of the top transition scorers in the league. Still bringing a large bulk of his athleticism to the floor, at 38. And we can compare this to Jordan at the same age, and the difference is clear.

It’s just that it doesn’t dent things for the Jordan crew, at all. They just go back to talking about the stuff they’ve been talking about for years. ‘Who cares that LeBron got the scoring title and is gritting out 45 mins to lead the first ever 2 - 10 starting team to the playoffs; what about that Dallas series in 2011?’

They’re so dug in they’re missing it. And there can’t be much of it left.

i might be wrong but when i look with mj at 38 1st season with wizard years he played around the same amount of games and minutes per game as lebron this year.

relatively speaking mj would of been around 9th best scorer ppg in the league (in the year MJ played) while lebron would be around 7th this year.

now would mj had a better performance if he would have 1-2 hof on his team ? who knows.

Siakam did make All NBA second team the following year and finished Top 10 in the MVP. Lowry also an all star. So not the best post to prove a point.

LeBon's still playing very well, but he obviously doesn't look like the best player in basketball anymore and no sane person would say otherwise.

MJ at 38 obviously not as good as LeBron at 38, though he was playing well before he got injured.

How much of that is modern science is a good question. Like there's a half dozen players in the NBA who shouldn't be doing what they are doing at their ages at the moment.

e.g. Steph at 6 foot nothing shouldn't be doing what he's doing at 35.

I’ll preface this by saying that there was nothing wrong with MJ’s Wizard return, really. He held his own and was capable of getting hot as a late career Kobe like chucker. MJ is incredible and coming back in his late thirties and playing like he did added to that greatness.

But like it’s a weird stretch here in terms of trying to draw MJ’s age 38 season as close to LeBron’s. Minutes were similar, which allows for a relevant comparison.

In terms of per game totals:

LeBron per game (MJ in brackets): 28.9ppg (22.9) 6.8apg (5.2) 8.3trb (5.7) 0.9spg (1.4) 0.6bpg (0.4)

Advanced metrics:


LeBron (MJ) PER: 23.9 (20.7) TS%: .583 (.468) USG: 33.3 (36) VORP 4.0 (2.7)

So yeah, MJ was asked to carry the load a little more than LeBron, but was less efficient and productive in every way we can measure that. He was managing half a steal more than LeBron per game and had more defensive win shares (3.4 MJ to 2.4 LBJ) - however that wasn’t contributing to a better overall team outcome as Washington were 21st of 29 teams in DRTG, LA have surprisingly been 11th of 30 this year.

But like I shouldn’t even need to list all of this. The eye test tells you what you need to know about these players at this age. LeBron is much more like what he was at his best, including the completely mad reality of being second in transition scoring only to Giannis before his ankle injury against the Mavs. At 38. Get out of here.

This should matter to the debate, that seems obvious to me. You can choose to prioritise peak if you like and you can focus on that unbeaten record in the finals. But LeBron objectively has the better overall career, superior longevity. Indeed he’s redefining what we might expect from a multiple league MVP as they age towards 40. That we’re getting to see these players compare at age 38 should be highly relevant to this conversation. It’s new data in a debate that has needed new data for years.

I would say that MJ was more like a higher volume Larry Hughes at 38. 468ts had to be a net negative on the team.

Ahh yes, it always comes back to good old 1 time career all-star Horace Grant! How could Jordan not win with all that "talent"!

If you like all-nba's, all-defense, and MVP votes -- you must have LOVED that 93 Suns team!

MVP Barkley
4X All-NBA, Kevin Johnson (also finished 7th in MVP votes in 91)
All-Defense, & 3X all-star Dan Majerle

Did the Raptors have 1 time all-star Horace Grant, though?!

No Horace Grant = No Super Team

Those are just the facts!